EC Social Charter Proposal (Hansard, 20 July 1989)

§ The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Lord Young of Graffham)
My Lords, the Government firmly believe that the creation of the internal market will create new jobs, will reduce unemployment and will improve real standards of living. The Government do not see how the charter proposed by the Commission could contribute to achieving those goals.

§ Lord Rochester
My Lords, I find that Answer depressingly negative. Would it not be more productive if, instead of denouncing, the charter as socialist and even Marxist, the Prime Minister in particular were to give a positive lead in seeking to adapt it to conditions in this country? Is it not a fact that, in the matter of employee involvement, so far from insisting that workers should sit on company boards, the key sentence in paragraph 22 of the charter states: Information, consultation and participation of workers must be developed along appropriate lines and in such a way as to take account of the laws, contractual agreements and practices in the member states". Is that not precisely what is already being done by our more progressive companies, and why should it not apply throughout British industry?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, the Madrid summit noted that job creation should be given top priority in the achievement of the internal market and that the role to be played by Community standards, by national legislation and by contractual relationships should be clearly established. That is the right approach, but it may well be that the noble Lord has forgotten what conditions were like 10 or 12 years ago when government tried to impose these things. What we have seen in the past few years is an enormous explosion in the creation of jobs and wealth—something which the Government's present policies have brought about.

§ Lord Murray of Epping Forest
My Lords, may we not hope that the Government will cooly and in consultation with our friends and colleagues in the rest of the Community examine the practical 915 advantages both to Britain and to Europe of adopting such a social charter? May we have an assurance that, whatever may be the Government's objections to other parts of the charter, they will have no objection to the provision in paragraph 17 for, the right to collective action in cases of conflicts of interest, including the right to strike", as this reproduces practically word for word Article 6(4) of the European social charter to which the United Kingdom is a party and which the noble Lord's colleague the Prime Minister has widely praised in commenting on current proposals for the charter?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, as I look round the United Kingdom today, I find no absence of the right to strike.

§ Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, how do the Government expect the single European market to function effectively without some degree of harmonisation on the social front, particularly in relation to labour law? How will a level playing field be established from the standpoint of freedom of movement between countries of the Community?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, freedom of movement is one thing. Freedom of movement is already established. I very much believe in diverse systems. The system in the United Kingdom which has seen the creation of 3.5 million new jobs over the past five years is one which we should uphold. The system across the water, which has seen an increase in the rate of unemployment and where statutory work protection applies to all kinds of jobs, is not one which I think it would profit the United Kingdom to adopt.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, are we not faced with a major crisis of confidence as a result of the emergence of wholesale corruption in the European Community? In dealing with such crime, can anything be less appropriate than another social inquiry?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I fail to recognise that wholesale corruption exists in the European Community. However, that is another question.

§ Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, is it not clear that, whereas level playing fields are all very well, nobody wants to see a level obstacle course? That is what the social charter offers in the way that it is currently being put forward.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I am very grateful indeed to my noble friend.

§ Lord Jenkins of Hillhead
My Lords, as in his original Answer the noble Lord referred to the generally constructive approach of the Government towards Europe, can he tell us how officials are getting on with the somewhat intractable task which they were set after the Madrid summit of preparing an alternative British plan for monetary union which 916 has nothing to do either with union or with a single currency?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, as I am sure the noble Lord will recognise, that question is a rather long way from a draft social charter. However, if he cares to put down a Question I shall be delighted to answer it.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the draft social charter is a typical and classic example of the doctrines of European Christian Democrats? Until recently we thought that they were also the doctrines of the noble Lord's party. What puzzles us—and we ask him to explain it—is why the Government are so antipathetic to a point of view which we thought was typically their own.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, of course there are elements in the social charter which we not only approve of but have led Europe in practising. There are other elements which we have practised and which we know have failed. We have no wish to return to those. Our position is very simple—to each his own. We know what makes the United Kingdom economy work and we should not like to change it.

§ Viscount Eccles
My Lords, is it not impossible to conceive of a social charter which is not based on political and economic principles? Is it not a fact that the economic and political principles of the governments of Europe differ very much: some are socialist, some are not socialist? Surely, therefore it is impossible to reform a charter. We ought to pursue our own ideas on how to treat our own people in industry and not try to borrow ideas from people whose basic views are different to ours.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I very much agree with my noble friend. What we are doing is to suggest that the social charter that works in the United Kingdom could be copied well by other countries in Europe. What we would never wish to do is to impose it upon other countries.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, in his rather surly reply to my noble friend Lord Murray of Epping Forest, the noble Lord appeared to speak with approval of the right to strike which he says still exists. Does that mean, and will he give an assurance, that in the Queen's Speech there will be no further measures to restrict the right to strike in this country?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I do not recognise the description "surly" of my reply to the noble Lord, Lord Murray, whom I have known for many years. All I pointed out to the noble Lord was that there appeared to be no shortage of the right to strike in the United Kingdom at this time.

§ Viscount Caldecote
My Lords, is it not much more important to stimulate the growth of UK manufacturing industry than it is to adopt irrelevant social charters from Europe?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I would rather we stimulated the entire wealth creation process of the economy including manufacturing. But as my noble friend knows, that is a matter on which we have already agreed to differ many times in the past.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, will the noble Lord answer—

Noble Lords
Order!