East Timor: Policy (Hansard, 13 December 1989)

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, our policy is to support the role of the United Nations Secretary General in encouraging a bilateral settlement between Portugal and Indonesia over East Timor. Such a settlement should take fully into account the interests of the people of East Timor.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, will the Minister affirm that this Government stand by the United Nations General Assembly Resolution No. 1514 of 1960 asserting the right of self-determination to all peoples? If so, will the British Government take the initiative in urging the United Nations to hold a plebiscite in East Timor so that the people there can decide what their future should be?

§ Lord Reay
No, my Lords. In 1982 the United Nations Secretary General was asked to promote talks between Portugal and Indonesia with a view to reaching a bilateral settlement. We support that process and believe it is the right way forward. We believe that it is the most realistic policy to pursue and in that we are supported by the majority of our European Community partners.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is it not the case that since 1975 a cruel but forgotten war has been waged in East Timor at the instance, mainly, of Indonesia and that over 100,000 people have been killed in that war? Further, is it not the case that Her Majesty's Government have been selling arms to Indonesia; and against the background of what the noble Lord said in his initial reply is that not inconsistent? Can he say whether it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government to sell arms in those circumstances? Will the Government use the offices of the United Nations to see whether or not this war can be brought to a just end and self-determination given to the people of East Timor?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, with regard to the question about arms, arms are sold to assist Indonesia's legitimate external needs. We do not include items likely to be used for internal repression. We are concerned about infringements of human rights wherever they occur, including Indonesia. The Indonesian Government have been made aware of 1294 our concerns, including those relating to recent incidents.

§ Lord Rea
My Lords, as a member of the IPU-sponsored delegation of parliamentarians from Britain who were allowed a fleeting visit to East Timor in March this year, I ask one or two quick supplementary questions—or perhaps one. Is the Minister aware that the delegation was supposed to meet Bishop Belo, the head of the Catholic Church in East Timor, but that when we arrived he was not available for us to visit? Is he concerned for the safety of Bishop Belo, who is sometimes outspoken in his criticism of the Indonesian authorities with regard to human rights, particularly in view of the violent dispersal of a group of supporters outside his house on 4th November this year?
Can he comment on the EC's point made to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights last month that the human rights situation in East Timor is still far from good, especially as regards not allowing access for recognised human rights groups like Amnesty International to visit East Timor?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I was aware that the noble Lord was a member of the delegation which visited East Timor last March. Our understanding is that most members of the delegation found conditions rather better than they had expected. The noble Lord will remember that the delegation was allowed to visit Bekora prison immediately it asked to do so and was allowed access to prisoners without Indonesian officials being present.
The incident on 4th November outside the house of Bishop Belo is a matter of concern to us and to the European Community and we shall continue to watch the situation.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I apologise for rising again, but can the noble Lord say how the Government are able to ensure that the arms sold to the Government of Indonesia are not used in the war against the people of East Timor?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, all I can say is that we have no evidence that military items sold to Indonesia have been used in East Timor.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the noble Lord answered no to my first supplementary question. Do I understand that to mean that the Government do not accept Resolution 1514 of the United Nations General Assembly asserting the right of all peoples to self-determination? How are the Government attempting to put that resolution into effect if all they are concerned about is negotiations between Portugal and Indonesia? Is it not the right of the people of East Timor to decide their own future? Will the Government insist through the United Nations that that is carried out?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, the talks between Portugal and Indonesia which we hope will lead to a bilateral settlement are taking place under the aegis of the Secretary General of the United Nations. He was requested by the United Nations to do exactly that. 1295 I have no doubt that any agreement reached under his auspices is bound to take proper account of the interests of the people of East Timor.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the noble Lord must make the Government's position clear. Do they accept the United Nations resolution of 1960 asserting the right of self-determination? The first answer the Minister gave was no. I cannot believe that the British Government do not accept that resolution.

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I answered no when the noble Lord asked whether we would take any initiatives other than those I have mentioned. At the moment we are not taking any initiative except to encourage the process, leading, we hope, to a bilateral settlement under the auspices of the United Nations.