Marine Nature Reserve: Search for Agreement (Hansard, 19 April 1989)

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, no date for an announcement of the second marine nature reserve can yet be given. Of sites under consideration, most progress has been made on that proposed for the area around Skomer where problems relating to the control of fishing within the proposed reserve have still to be resolved.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Is he not aware that there is one outstanding matter at Skomer? I refer to the dispute between divers and fishermen. Can the noble Earl tell the House whether the Government are to give a clear lead on that matter or whether we are to go on for ever with the present situation? Is not the noble Earl aware that for the third year in succession a temporary liaison officer has been appointed? Does that mean that for at least another year nothing will happen in relation to Skomer?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Baroness is right in that there are difficulties, particularly with a sub-aqua club. The difficulty of a marine nature reserve, as I know the noble Baroness is aware, is that it cannot be ring-fenced. A fence cannot be put round it. Therefore, one has to work out a solution by discussion and co-operation because that is the only way to obtain a lasting benefit. Of course, I will pass on the concerns of the noble Baroness to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales.

Lord Winstanley
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that this is the sixth time during the past four years on which this Question—or one almost identical to it—has appeared on our Order Paper? It is also the sixth time that in response we have received in the main prevarication and soothing words. Does the Minister accept that during those four years of waiting great damage has been done to some of the sites nominated by the Nature 770 Conservancy Council? Can the Minister say whether in the long term environmental imperatives are to be subordinate to commercial and sporting interests?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I take note of what the noble Lord says about the delays. Obviously we wish to proceed as quickly as possible. However, I am sure he will appreciate that with something as complicated as a marine nature reserve it is essential that we get all the interests together, otherwise it will take a great deal of policing, which in all probability is not practicable.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, has asked my question very eloquently. Can the Minister tell us the position not only as regards Skomer but the Menai Straits as well? Can the Minister say whether we are to be fortunate enough very shortly to hear another constructive speech from the Secretary of State for Wales about these and other matters?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I do not have my right honourable friend's diary with me, but I shall pass on the comments made by the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition. As regards the Menai Straits, the Nature Conservancy Council's consultation paper was published in September 1988 and responses were requested by January this year. To date 25 letters opposing the proposal and some 150 in support have been received.

The Earl of Cranbrook
My Lords, can my noble friend please give any clarification concerning responses to the extremely helpful document Some Questions and Answers that the NCC issued on the Menai Straits and the proposed marine nature reserve?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, not without notice. I cannot give that information to my noble friend now.

§ Lord Northfield
My Lords, why does the noble Earl say that it is so terribly difficult and complicated for Britain when other countries are promoting this kind of reserve? For example, has not the Minister seen the underwater national parks which exist in parts of America? The Americans seem to solve these problems reasonably easily. Perhaps the noble Earl can tell us why we are finding it so difficult.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we prefer to work by consensus. As the noble Lord will be aware, the first marine nature reserve at Lundy is working well.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, it has taken five years for the first marine nature reserve to be established at Lundy, and it looks like a similar timescale for Skomer. Can the Minister tell us, for instance, the timescale for Loch Sween? Will it be 1996? For the Isles of Scilly, will it be 2001 and for the Menai Straits, 2006? In view of this casual attitude to delivering the sites, what plans do the Government have to speed up this very dilatory progress?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord asked a question relating to that on the Order Paper and I will now answer him. I will pass on what the noble Lord has said to the Nature Conservancy Council. However, one has to take into account all the interests.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, do I understand that the Nature Conservancy Council is reducing its commitment to marine conservation when one takes into account the fact that it has transferred certain headings? For example, marine birds used to be dealt with under the birds' heading, but it has now been transferred to marine conservation. In effect, that is a cut in the marine conservation budget. Can the noble Earl comment on that?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I cannot comment on how the Nature Conservancy Council decide to apportion its work or the finances that the Government have given it on a very rapidly increasing scale. I can assure the noble Baroness that we have certainly not lessened our commitment to marine nature reserves.

§ Lord Stanley of Alderley
My Lords, is not one of the problems that the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 placed a duty on the Secretary of State to consider all the objections? Does the Minister not agree that that makes it very difficult to produce marine nature reserves such as the one proposed for the Menai Straits, where there have been a great many objections?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I believe that my noble friend is right. I seem to remember that he was very keen that the Secretary of State should take into account all those who were in favour and those who were against the scheme.