The Environment: Policy (Hansard, 18 October 1988)

The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (The Earl of Caithness)
No, my Lords. We have a consistent programme of action for the environment. We have taken, are taking and will continue to take many major initiatives at both the national and international level.

§ Lord Ezra
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the Government have earned the reputation in Europe of lagging behind other countries in matters of environmental improvement and safeguards? For example, on acid rain they were late converts; on the matter of CFCs and the impact on the ozone layer they have been late converts, and on the matter of vehicle exhausts they have been late converts—

§ Lord Ezra
My Lords, those are a few examples. May I ask—

§ Lord Ezra
My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether the Prime Minister's speeches on 27th September to the Royal Society and on 14th October to the Conservative Party Conference mean that Britain will now take the lead in these matters instead of lagging behind as hitherto?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, as noble Lords will well know, Britain has and will continue to take a lead, particularly in trans-boundary pollution. The noble Lord will be aware that we recently received a report from the stratospheric ozone review group and I immediately announced that we would call for a reduction of at least 85 per cent. in CFCs. We are also taking the lead in climate change. I have arranged for both those matters to be put on the agenda for the next meeting of the Council of Ministers. I am delighted to see that at long last Germany has followed us.

§ Lord Barnett
My Lords, can the Minister say whether the Government's commitment to the environment includes a willingness to increase public expenditure where required?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, when we came to office in 1979 we found that spending on research was not very great. We have increased it in real terms.

§ Lord Broxbourne
My Lords, has not the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, got it wrong on this occasion, which is unusual for him with his distinction in this and other fields? Does not the environmental policy, as recently stated so eloquently by the Prime Minister, represent not a change but a reaffirmation and re-emphasis of what has been traditional Conservative policy since Disraeli's government introduced the Public Health Act 1875?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. We look forward to seeing the replies which governments of other countries manage to produce to the Brundtland Report with a prime minister's foreword.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, despite what has been said, there appears to be no evidence that the Government are doing anything? Or, on the other hand—

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the Minister also aware that in knowledgeable and specialist newspapers and on serious TV programmes grave apprehension is expressed about the little we are doing in the new field of environmental policy, particularly with regard to CFCs and other dangerous issues?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord. I have seen some of the reports, most of which are unfounded or produce only one aspect of a complicated problem. Of course we are not perfect; no country in the world is perfect. However, we are taking a lead.

§ Lord Hooson
My Lords, can the Minister confirm that the report in The Times of yesterday about his future responsibilities with regard to the environment is substantially correct? If it is correct, what are the recent events that have /brought /about; the necessity for appointing such a committee?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the responsibilities that I have the honour to undertake on behalf of the Department of the Environment are well known to your Lordships. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State and I are considering what further measures we should be taking.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, is the Minister aware that there has been a change in emphasis on environmental policy by Her Majesty's Government—namely, their agreement with the British coal industry to expand open-cast coal mining, which is the worst polluter of the environment in this country? It brings noise and dirt. It affects the immediate surroundings, in many instances for up to seven years, despoiling the countryside, affecting the lives of old people, devaluing their property and sending rumbling coal lorries through every country village. That has a devastating effect on people's lives and the general environment. If the Minister wants to improve the environment then stop open-cast coal mining.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, it is not the job of the planning system to deliver a particular level of coal input nor to prevent development which is acceptable in planning terms. As the noble Lord will know, each case is considered on its merits.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, can the House be given a few specific facts in relation to the new affirmation that we are asked to accept? For example, the Natural Environment Research Council is to lose 160 jobs this year, all concerned with environmental research. Are those losses not now to take place? Will the £30 million of agricultural research which has been cut this year be reinstated? Will the privatisation of water be looked at again? Can we expect that the proposed reduction in sewage treatment regulations, which was to accompany privatisation, will not now take place?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware that NERC funding has risen by 15 per cent. in real terms since we came to power in 1979. It is 11 per cent. higher than it was last year. It is up to NERC to decide how it wishes to spend the money which we allocate to it. In 1988-89 it will be £123.3 million.
With regard to the privatisation of water, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State announced the setting up of a body which at the moment is known as the National Rivers Authority and is specifically to improve the environmental benefits from water.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, are the Government aware of a speech made by Mr. Edward Shevardnadze on 27th September, at the same time as the Prime Minister was making her speech to the 1011 Royal Society? In it he suggested a number of initiatives. What is the Government's view of those initiatives and what response have they made to the speech?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord has raised an important point. We are in contact with the Eastern bloc, which is perhaps one of the worst polluters as regards acid rain. The potential damage that it could do to the ozone with CFCs is more than the good which the European Community could do.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, that is not an answer to the question. Have the Government directly responded to that initiative put forward in the speech by Mr. Shevardnadze at the United Nations?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, yes, we have taken up the matter and both the department and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office are in contact with the Russians.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, now that the Prime Minister has made such an effective and important suggestion as to what we should do in the future, will the Minister prepare himself for the fact that all the Opposition Benches will want to jump in to try to share the benefit? This afternoon is a good example.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I look forward to answering many questions on the environment. There is a good story to tell.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, if I may be allowed to jump in, does the noble Earl agree that one of the most dangerous pollutants in towns and cities in this country is motor car exhaust fumes? Why is it that, given the fact that most countries in the world, including some in Europe and the United States, have insisted on the catalytic converter on exhausts, Her Majesty's Government are lagging behind? Why do they not take that one simple step which would purify the atmosphere and save a large number of lives?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition will know that we were the first country of the group to ask that the 12 gramme limit should be reduced to 8 grammes. I moved to that position on the basis of scientific evidence showing that that was the right way to go. We hope that the agreement will be signed in November and that other countries which followed Britain by reducing the limit to 8 grammes will sign it.
We have not gone further because considerable research is taking place on the "lean burn" engine. It could have enormous environmental benefits by reducing carbon dioxide, one of the climate change and greenhouse gases. If that can be reduced within the engine without putting a catalyst at the back it will be a major step forward.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, much of what the Government intend to do about 1012 environmental matters must be implemented by local authorities. Can the Minister give an assurance that when the rate support grant settlements are reviewed this year the extra cost to local authorities will be borne in mind?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, of course I shall bear in mind what the noble Lord says. However, it is up to industry and to each of us. I wonder how many of us are at the moment driving cars with unleaded petrol.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, one of the most serious problems which will face us over the next 50 years is the greenhouse effect. Some estimates now show that the world temperature will rise by 5 per cent. causing flooding not only in other parts of the world but also in East Anglia. What do the Government intend to do about putting far more money into research on energy renewables?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, Britain is fortunate in that it has one of the four global meteorological modelling stations in the world. There is one in Germany, two in America and one in Britain. One might well ask why other countries have not been prepared to commit the resources to that that we have. I assure the noble Lord that this is perhaps the most potential threat to sustainable development and the environment, and it is a matter which we take extremely seriously.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, is the Minister aware that he said that the Government relied largely on voluntary effort to contain the threat facing mankind? Surely that is entirely contrary to common sense? Moreover, without government effort, those people who wish to grow richer, such as those in the East and elsewhere, will continue to pollute. Therefore voluntary effort cannot cope with the problem.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I said that voluntary effort is part of the problem. What is important is that we have international agreements regarding the large combustion plants and acid rain. I hope to be going to Sofia at the end of the month to sign the NOX Protocol with some of the Eastern bloc countries. However, it requires government, industry and each of us to play our part in overcoming the problem.