HL Deb 17 October 1988 vol 500 cc929-32

2.37 p.m.

Lord Carver asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they have yet devised an equitable method by which regular serving members of the armed forces would pay the community charge.

The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)

My Lords, in general, members of the armed forces will pay the community charge in the same way as other members of the population. So far as equity between service personnel is concerned, we are looking at ways of evening-out the extremes of community charge liability and we expect to reach a decision very shortly.

Lord Carver

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, which holds out a slight ray of hope. is he aware that the system which he has proposed, unless alleviated, will lead to a great many serious anomalies between different individuals in the armed forces who have the same rank and status and that it will be extremely complicated to administer? Can he explain why the Government have rejected, as I understand they have, a simple and equitable method similar to that currently in force by which a rate element is incorporated in the accommodation charge?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the difficulty with the arrangement proposed by the noble and gallant Lord is that it would, in the jargon, decouple the responsibility for paying the community charge from the responsibility for the provision of the services. That has been a fundamental element of the policy right from the start; namely, that those who pay for the services should also have access to the voting arrangements. However, I hope that the noble and gallant Lord will accept my assurance that we recognise that there are still some anomalies and that we are working to resolve them.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, the Government rightly emphasise the financial responsibility to electors. But will they take into account the fact that service personnel are encouraged to register as service voters in a particular constituency, usually where they have their homes, and that they usually vote by proxy or post because they are moved around so much both at home and abroad? These people would not be able to record their judgment in local elections in the council's area where they happened to be stationed at the time.

Lord Trefgarne

Yes, my Lords, but it is open to service personnel to register to vote where they think fit, particularly where they pay the community charge. If, for example, they find themselves in a region where they are paying an excessive community charge, it is open to them to get on to the voters' list in the region concerned and help to remove the relevant council.

Lord Graham of Edmonton

My Lords, can the Minister say why the Government persist in making members of the armed forces and their families pay more under the community charge when there is in existence a perfectly acceptable arrangement of collective payment which we have already been told has the full support of the forces? Does the Minister recognise that what he proposes will add further to the administrative costs and burdens of local authorities and that what he has said this afternoon simply confirms what has all along been the view of the Labour Party; namely, that the community charge is unjust, unfair and inequitable?

Lord Trefgarne

I do not agree with a word of that, my Lords. The fact is that service people will not be paying more, as the noble Lord suggests. At present a rate element is included in accommodation charges paid by service personnel. That will be removed when the community charge arrangements come into force. We are very anxious indeed to ensure that the important link between what people pay and the level of local services that they enjoy is maintained.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, I declare an interest in this matter as the father of a serving soldier. Will my noble friend confirm whether his original Answer to the noble and gallant Lord opposite means that there is to be a kind of graduated scale of payment, not completely equalised but ruling out extremes? Will he explain a little more fully exactly what is proposed?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am sorry that I cannot be more specific at present: final conclusions have not been reached on this matter. So far as England and Wales are concerned the community charge will not be introduced until April 1990; in Scotland it will come into effect a year earlier. However, the anomaly to which the noble and gallant Lord pointed undoubtedly exists and we are working to overcome it. The range of community charge which gives rise to the anomaly is quite considerable. It varies from about £ 107 per head in Orkney to more than £ 600 in one or two London boroughs. I hope that that does not mean we shall have a rash of applications to serve in Orkney.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, the noble Lord was honest enough to say that this is one of a number of anomalies which have arisen as a result of this Act. Will he say how many anomalies there are in addition to this one? In due course is it the Government's intention to publish a White Paper?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I do not think I said that there were a lot of anomalies. However, I certainly accept that the one to which the noble and gallant Lord has pointed is a matter which needs to be considered. That is what is happening.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, with respect, in a previous answer the noble Lord said that there are a number of anomalies. He must have meant what he said, even if it is not in his brief. Can he specify how many anomalies there are in addition to this one?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, if the noble Lord wishes me to recite a few more difficulties, I dare say that with the help of the noble Lord opposite I could do so, but how accurate that would be I am not certain. It might be better if I were to concentrate upon the anomaly pointed out by the noble and gallant Lord.

Lord Hunt

My Lords, given the circumstances of the serving personnel and their lack of freedom to choose where they live and work, would it not be simpler and equitable if a standard charge were made for all personnel of all three services throughout the United Kingdom?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, although it is true that service personnel are frequently posted from one place to another, it is not necessarily the case that they would pay the community charge in a variety of different places because, if thought fit, for the purposes of the charge their official residence can be decided to be in one place.

Lord Morris

My Lords, in answer to a previous supplementary question my noble friend quite correctly referred to linking the community charge to the benefits received. Can he say what benefits a service man and his family would receive if they were posted abroad for one year or more?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, if they were posted abroad or away from their principal residence for a considerable period, they would cease to be resident in that place and I believe that arrangements would then come into force to ensure that they would not have to pay the community charge, in the same way as they would cease to pay rates.

Lord Lewin

My Lords, in sharing the concern of my noble and gallant friend on this matter, will the Minister pay attention to one specific and general aspect? It is that of submariners who, when embarked in a submarine, do not pay accommodation charges or a contribution towards rates. However, when they come into harbour they have to transfer to shore accommodation and pay a contribution. Will he please pay particular attention to that anomaly?

More generally, will he please try to ensure that whatever solution is reached it does not so add to the bureaucracy of collection for the services that it distorts the allocation resources towards the tail and away from the teeth? We are continually trying to do the reverse.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, on the second question of the noble and gallant Lord, I agree that we certainly need to ensure that the move that we have instituted for some years past from the tail to the teeth continues and is not in any way upset by these new arrangements.

With regard to the position of submariners when they come ashore, that is indeed a difficulty that we are considering. It was one of the other matters that I had in mind when I was answering the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn.

Lord Diamond

My Lords, when the noble Lord has removed all these difficulties, will he be good enough to make a Statement in this House so that we may know his solution?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I was not planning to make a Statement. However, I dare say that one of the very numerous, senior, distinguished and gallant noble Lords will ask me if I do not.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, the Minister has referred to the anomalies which will be cleared up. As the new law will apply to Scotland next year, can he tell us how quickly that anomaly will be cleared up because the Scottish authorities will wish to know? Is not the qualifying date for the electoral register in Scotland the same as it is in England—10th October—which is past?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am not aware of the veracity of the last point, although I do not wish to question what the noble Lord says. I certainly agree that we need to move forward with this matter at the maximum possible speed. We shall see that that happens.

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, the Minister referred to the noble Field Marshal on my left as "noble and gallant". When he refers to a company sergeant-major in the First World War he is merely "noble".

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I understand that it is the practice of the House to refer to those noble Lords who continue to hold five-star rank as "noble and gallant". That in no way detracts of course from the gallantry of the noble Lord himself.

Lord Mowbray and Stourton

My Lords, is it not the case that if the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, had won the Victoria Cross he would be gallant too?