§ 3 P.m.
§ Earl Russell asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether the statement by the Prime Minister (Sunday Times, 8th May 1988) that, "the Department of Education and Science could not make all the decisions with regard to schools; it would just not be possible. They would not know the circumstances", represents their policy.
§ The Earl of ArranMy Lords, the Government's policy is that the duty to secure that sufficient schools are available in each area should continue to rest with the local education authorities. The day-to-day running of the schools should rest with the schools themselves.
§ Earl RussellMy Lords, I welcome that reply. The Prime Minister states a general principle, in the words on the Order Paper:
the Department of Education and Science could not make all the decisions with regard to schools; it would just not be possible".Those noble Lords who sat through the marathon of the Education Reform Bill may feel that they have heard those words before. May I therefore ask whether we are to welcome the Prime Minister to the ranks of the critics of the Bill? Are we to welcome her conversion to the view that has been so brutally expressed by Digby Anderson that Kenneth Baker is a socialist? May we look forward to the amendment of the Education Reform Bill in order to loosen the straitjacket of the DES? Or must I give notice of a Question to ask whether that Bill represents government policy; and, if so, would the Secretary of State know the answer to it?
§ The Earl of ArranMy Lords, that was a plethora of questions from the noble Earl. I should point out that the main thrust of the Education Reform Bill is to involve more people in the running of schools by giving more power to parents and governors. Local authorities will continue to play a very important role, not least in setting the framework for the education service for their areas and in monitoring its delivery.
§ Baroness BlatchMy Lords, does my noble friend agree that this Bill will allow more choice to parents and to pupils?
§ The Earl of ArranMy Lords, my noble friend asked a most apposite question because the Government's purpose is to provide a much wider range of choice for parents and their children. The Bill will widen choice by allowing more open enrolment to maintained schools and by providing new kinds of schools. The legislation is concerned with introducing a greater variety of provision so as to give parents a real choice.
§ Baroness SeearMy Lords, can the noble Earl say how pupils can be given a wider range of choice when there is a fixed curriculum that every child will have to take and which will occupy 70 per cent. of the time?
§ The Earl of ArranMy Lords, that may be the noble Baroness's comment on the national curriculum, but I remind your Lordships that the Bill passed through this House in its present form. Everything else that pertains to it is quite correct.
§ Lord PestonMy Lords, the words of the Prime Minister quoted in the Question refer to the DES, which, it says,
would not know the circumstances".Can the noble Earl tell the House whether there is any one thing that the DES knows at all?
§ The Earl of ArranMy Lords, the DES knows a considerable amount about how to run things. Furthermore, I should point out that in this country we have a great tradition of a career Civil Service. Its primary strength lies in the capacity of its senior civil servants through their ability, experience and training—
§ The Earl of Arran—to offer impartial and objective advice to Ministers on a wide range of policy issues. It is their job to review and synthesise—
§ The Earl of ArranThank you, my Lords—the often conflicting advice of specialists in the field.
§ Baroness DavidMy Lords, is the Minister aware that I have asked a Question on this matter at least twice in written form and that I put an oral question to him last month? From among the ranks of its very famous civil servants with general qualifications does the DES have people with the necessary experience? Do they have teaching experience—the professional experience of teaching in schools or further education establishments—or even experience in administration in local authorities?
§ The Earl of ArranMy Lords, that is a well worn track of questioning pursued by the noble Baroness. My reply is that the DES draws on advice from a wide 777 range of sources, which include HMI, a variety of expert non-departmental public bodies and also expert working groups set up to consider particular issues.
§ Baroness DavidMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that HMI is independent of the DES, and that the two are quite separate?
§ The Earl of ArranMy Lords, I am only too well aware of it. Nevertheless, the DES continues to draw advice and experience from HMI.
§ Baroness Carnegy of LourMy Lords, is it not the whole point of financial delegation to schools and setting up the new governing bodies that decision-making in future will devolve to schools and not be done in the DES or in the local authorities? That is where the people are who know what teaching and children are all about. That is the whole ethos of the Bill. Is it not very important that the House should accept that?
§ The Earl of ArranMy Lords, my noble friend is quite right. Our proposals are designed to achieve maximum delegation of decision-making to the school level while retaining an overall framework to protect standards of provision. Local authorities will remain responsible for setting the framework within their areas while national government set standards across the country. The Bill is concerned with securing the maximum delegation of power consistent with maintaining standards.
§ Earl RussellMy Lords, does the noble Earl agree that, as quoted in the Question, the Prime Minister has stated a general principle that is in fundamental conflict with the purpose of a Government Bill; and if not, why not?
§ The Earl of ArranNo, my Lords.