HL Deb 24 June 1988 vol 498 cc1053-5

11.24 a.m.

Baroness Turner of Camden asked Her Majesty's Government:

What is their attitude to the finding of the International Labour Organisation (ILO) committee of experts that the Teachers' Pay and Conditions Act is in breach of ILO Convention 98 and whether they will take early steps to introduce normal collective bargaining procedures.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Education and Science (Baroness Hooper)

My Lords, the Government will be considering carefully what the International Labour Organisation has said. There will be discussions in the next few months with the teachers' unions and with local education authority employers about future pay and conditions machinery.

Baroness Turner of Camden

My Lords, I am very pleased to hear what the Minister has to say. May I follow up that Question by asking her how soon this process is expected to be completed, and if we can expect to see normal collective bargaining procedures put into operation during the course of the Teachers' Pay and Conditions Act, and perhaps by way of amendment to it?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, the next step will be further discussions with the interested parties. It is not possible to say when a final outcome will be reached, but there is a wide variety of important factors that the Government have to take into account, as the noble Baroness will appreciate, in establishing new machinery for determining school teachers' pay and conditions.

The Government put forward certain proposals in a Green Paper, and there have already been brief discussions about future machinery with the teachers' unions and the employers in the context of meetings about this year's report from the interim advisory committee. As I have said, there will be future discussions; but I must make clear that there are still wide differences of opinion among the unions themselves about the machinery that they would like.

Viscount Tonypandy

My Lords, is the Minister aware that while there are differences among the teaching unions, there is unanimity that they dislike having settlements imposed upon them by Her Majesty's Government, however generous the Government may think them to be? Is she further aware that eminently reasonable people within the teaching profession consider that it is not part of our parliamentary democratic process for government to behave in quite such a high-handed manner?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, we must look at the history of the matter. It was clearly right to introduce the Teachers' Pay and Conditions Act. The Burnham machinery had broken down and something had to be done to sort out the mess. As I have explained, we are working towards a permanent machinery.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, does the Minister recall that it is less than two years ago when she stood at that Dispatch Box, repeatedly and with a straight face assuring me that what was proposed was not in breach of the ILO convention? Will she now be generous, go further and say that not only is it in breach of the ILO convention, but it is in breach of decent industrial relations and proper respect for teachers?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, as I said, the Government are considering the ILO statement. However, the ILO itself has already recognised that we are working towards new machinery. Perhaps I may quote from a recommendation of the Committee on Freedom of Association of the ILO: the Committee trusts that the consultations now under way will give the United Kingdom Government an opportunity to make the necessary legislative amendments to conform with Convention 98". So there is recognition that we are moving toward the right goal.

Lord Broxbourne

My Lords, is my noble friend able to assist noble Lords (of whom I am one) who have no close familiarity with these idiosyncratic matters by defining the terms of reference and composition of the committee of experts and saying what jurisdiction they have to pronounce upon the statute law of this country?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, I am not in a position to give my noble friend the detailed composition of the committee of experts which has so pronounced; but my noble friend will be well aware that this country is party to the ILO convention and has been for a number of years.

Lord Mulley

My Lords, in view of the great pressure on parliamentary time of the Government's legislative programme, of which your Lordships are only too well aware, and since legislation may be necessary in order to rectify this matter, could it not be dealt with in the education Bill that is currently before the House, as otherwise there will be an excuse of there being no parliamentary time available?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, as I have already said, this is a matter which is subject to consultation. To elaborate on the fact that there is a wide difference of opinion between the unions about the machinery that they would like to see, perhaps I may explain that one union favours a pay review body and others want a national joint council; one union wants special arrangements for heads and deputies and another union considers that there should be separate arrangements for primary and secondary teachers. So there are a number of factors that will have to be dealt with in order to please all the interested parties.

Lord Morris

My Lords, following the question of the noble Lord, Lord Broxbourne, can the Minister say whether I would be naïve in believing that it is for Parliament to pass the law of the land and for the courts to interpret that law and not this type of committee?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, as I said, as a party to the ILO convention naturally we take into account its pronouncements. That is what we intend to do in the context of the present teachers' pay and conditions negotiations.

Lord Murray of Epping Forest

My Lords, does the Minister accept that we are not discussing a unique situation? Does she share my dismay that Britain should be found guilty in the company of such countries as Chile, Colombia, Bangladesh and Rumania of persistently being in breach of obligations which, as she herself has said, are part of conventions to which we have agreed and acceded in the past? If she shares my dismay, can we be assured that the Government will take speedy action to restore Britain to the level of respect which formerly was accorded to us in this United Nations organisation?

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, as I have said, the Government are considering what the ILO has said in this matter. The ILO has recognised that we are working towards new machinery.