Football Hooliganism (Hansard, 24 June 1988)

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, it is the responsibility of the football authorities and spectators to protect the reputation of English football. The Government remain concerned to combat football hooliganism at home and abroad.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, will the Minister accept that wherever else responsibility lies in this matter there is a prime responsibility upon the Government to react to the disgraceful scenes in Germany which we have witnessed over the past two weeks? Will the Minister bear in mind that what we have seen on television, and elsewhere, of events overseas is very familiar to those of us who follow the situation in this country? Does the Minister agree that when considering the various measures that might be taken to curb this distressing situation it should be recognised that excessive alcohol consumption by the young plays a very important part in the problem?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I fully understand and accept what the noble Lord, Lord Graham, has said. The Government are now considering action on four fronts: the imposition of restrictions on overseas travel following conviction for an offence; the conditions for admission to football grounds, including national and club membership schemes; the control and restriction of the sale of alcohol in the vicinity of sports grounds; and the future participation of the national team in international competition. Those are being looked at now, and my right honourable friend the Prime Minister will be meeting the football authorities on 6th July.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the Government have any idea as to where the hooligans concerned get the funds to enable them to travel to these places? Presumably they are not working. Are they on social security?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I do not think that the Government are in a position to know where the funds come from.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, while I sympathise with the sentiments of the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, is it not the case that no one can protect the reputation of English football except English fans and those who play in, and go to, football matches? Is it not a fact that if the Government were godlike they could hardly undertake that job? May I also draw the noble Lord's attention to the fact that in the case of Scottish football, which is played in a civilised country, supporters appear to have learnt to behave very much better without the assistance of the Government?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I am aware of the slightly different situation in Scotland. I fully appreciate the point made by the noble Lord. The difficulty is that at the end of the day it is well nigh impossible to legislate good manners or good behaviour.

§ Viscount Mountgarret
My Lords, would it not be possible for the Government to consider reaching an agreement, in particular with the European Community, whereby those who commit offences while abroad have their passports endorsed in the same way as a driving licence is endorsed for offences which have been committed? If that were done, should the person concerned return to the country in which the offence had been committed, the authorities could consider whether to grant him admission and no doubt they would be circumspect if a football match happened to be imminent.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, of the four areas at which the Government are looking at the moment, the imposition of restrictions on overseas travel following the conviction for an offence is one of the items.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the noble Lord, Lord Grimond, should not be so smug in heaping praise upon Scottish football supporters? As I recall, it was only a few years ago that Wembley, for the first and only time, was wrecked after an international match, and it was the Scottish supporters and not the English supporters who did it. So this matter is rather more national than the noble Lord, Lord Grimond, tries to make out.
Is the Minister aware that the three grounds in England that have the biggest average gates also have the least trouble? In the main, the trouble does not happen at the big grounds; it happens away from them. Among chiefs of police dealing with the situation there is the fear that if someone suggests the extreme solution of starting to close down football grounds then the hooligans (who are not genuine football supporters) will go somewhere else to cause a mischief. I think that it is as well to draw attention to the fact that the greatest act of hooliganism perpetrated in the past 12 months occurred last week at Stonehenge and not at a football match.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely correct. The problem goes beyond football and far beyond the football grounds themselves.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, will the Minister accept that I very much appreciate his last remark that this problem goes far beyond football? I say that as one who believes that football is a marvellous game. I have supported one club for over 50 years, but I shall refrain from mentioning the name of that famous ground. Is it not a fact that certain suggestions have been made by individuals who know nothing about football, have never passed through a turnstile in their lives, and do not appreciate the problem that would exist if there were an all-ticket scheme which meant that some 20,000 people had to get through turnstiles? Does he appreciate that the problem is in fact one of general violence in society and that we 1053 ought to be trying to deal with that problem? As my noble friend said, there are problems well outside the area of football.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I fully appreciate the noble Lord's remarks. Speaking as an ex-director of a league football club, I entirely agree with him.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it would be worthwhile talking to officials and people who are well known in the world of both rugby league and rugby union, because it seems that rugby does not have this problem? Rugby matches bring out the same fervour and massive support but very little violence.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I am unaware of the situation with regard to both league and union rugby football.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, would the Minister and his colleagues, when considering how to deal with this problem, look very carefully at the situation in which Right-wing extremist groups have been seen to have deliberately provoked violence for political purposes?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, with regard to what happened in Germany, I am not aware that there was a political content to it.