Harland and Wolff Shipyards: Proposed Sale (Hansard, 8 July 1988)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell)
My Lords, there have been preliminary discussions with interested parties about the possible privatisation of Harland and Wolff but as yet no detailed negotations.

§ Lord Bruce-Gardyne
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. In view of our experience of visiting entrepreneurs in the Province, will he assure us that if we were to come to terms with the disposal of those yards to Mr. Ravi Tikkoo it would be on the basis that on this occasion there would be no possibility of his returning for more funding if it turned out that the "Ultimate Dream" was not the ultimate dream that he thought it was? Will he also assure that any deal we strike on this occasion will conform with the rules and conventions of the European Community?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, the "Ultimate Dream" is still under negotiation between Mr. Tikkoo and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. I can assure my noble friend and your Lordships that proposals for the acquisition of the Harland and Wolff shipyard and the terms of any possible sale which may be negotiated will be carefully scrutinised to ensure the best use of public funds as well, as I am sure my noble friend will be pleased to hear, as the obtaining of value for money.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, does the Minister recall that in the debate on Northern Ireland matters last Friday my noble friend Lord Fitt said: I think it would be a total disaster politically, industrially, economically and symbolically if anything were to happen which would lead to the closure of the Belfast Shipyard"—[Official Report, 1/7/88; col. 1867.] Will the Minister take fully on board those heartfelt sentiments from someone who lives in the area and knows it better than anyone else in the House? Further, the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, said in that debate that the prospects of privatisation were looked upon with foreboding, not least because of the loss of jobs. Will the Minister bear in mind the wider considerations as well as simply value for taxpayers' money?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, the answer to the noble Lord's first question quoting the powerful and considerable speech of his noble friend last week is, yes, I take on board his comments. Indeed, my right honourable friend has taken careful note of everything that was said last week.
As regards the noble Lord's second question, perhaps I may quote what my right honourable friend said in another place recently in reply to the honourable Member for Belfast, East. He said that the Government believed philosophically that it was the right way to proceed with the privatisation of the yard and that they were also interested in it as a possible way forward for Harland and Wolff. I am also sure that the noble Lord will know that this is the preferred way for Harland and Wolff itself. Its management has expressed this preference.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, can my noble friend tell the House how much of taxpayers' money has been put into subsidising the continued operations of this yard over the last 10 years?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I am afraid I cannot. I shall certainly write to the noble Lord with the figures for the last 10 years.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, accepting always that the taxpayer not only has a right to be considered but there is also an obligation for him to be considered in the special circumstances of Northern Ireland, Belfast and what we call "the troubles", will the Minister pay very close attention to the consequences for the general situation in Northern Ireland if he accepts the case that economically Harland and Wolff could be privatised?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, all those factors will be and are being taken into consideration in both sets of negotiations as regards the "Ultimate Dream" and the shipyard itself.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is the Minister aware that if he had had the figures available for which the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, asked, they would show that over the years a considerable subsidy has been provided by the taxpayer in order to help Harland and Wolff stay open? Indeed, in view of the social consequences, most of us would support that action. However, is it not a fact that that subsidy is far in excess of any subsidy that has ever been given to any shipyard on the mainland? Is the Minister also aware that, bearing in mind the present situation of the shipbuilding industry nationally, if financial assistance is not continued indefinitely it could spell very serious consequences for Harland and Wolff, its workforce and Northern Ireland as a whole?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, as regards the noble Lord's last question, I repeat that of course we are taking into account the importance of Harland and Wolff to Northern Ireland. It is very much part of our thinking when we have these discussions as to the future of the yard. As regards the subsidy, perhaps the noble Lord should compare like with like. We do not believe that Harland and Wolff is out of line with other similar shipyards and similar contracts elsewhere in the United Kingdom.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, in the light of what the noble Lord has just said, is he satisfied that the complex political situation in Northern Ireland has been taken fully into account in coming to this decision?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, will appreciate that that will be one of the many factors we shall be considering as regards the future of the shipyard. We shall be considering financial, political and every kind of factor. However I think the terms of my noble friend's question were on value for money. I am sure that would be the main thrust of any discussions that we have—value for money with the taxpayers' money.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the original Question put down by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce-Gardyne, asked for an assurance that in the event of our selling to this would-be purchaser, we shall ensure that he does not come back in a few months' time and say, "I want some more money from the Government or else I shall shut it down anyway". This has happened before. Already, as the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, has said, we are putting in untold millions of pounds. This fellow is not going to get away with that, is he?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I wonder who is getting away and whether I am supposed to be getting away with an easy ride here. No, negotiations are continuing with a number of interested persons on the future of Harland and Wolff. We may have some further news in the near future about that.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the noble Lord saying that value for money is now the predominant consideration of the Government in Northern Ireland?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I have stressed that value for money is one of the main considerations, but I said that there were many others. I am sure that the noble Lord, with his customary close attention to what I have said, will note that. If the noble Lord does not believe it then I am sure that everything that I and the Government have said over the years will be at variance with what he believes.

§ Lord Bruce-Gardyne
My Lords, in the light of the supplementary question of the noble Lord, Lord Mellish, will my noble friend further consider a suggestion I made previously? If we are to put taxpayers' money into this "Ultimate Dream" project as part of the privatisation arrangement, will my noble friend and his right honourable friend the Secretary of State consider making a personal investment in the project to show that they share the confidence in Mr. Tikkoo that he will be a success?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, my noble friend will receive the same answer as he received about two years ago when we were dealing with another interesting entrepreneur. The famed firm of lawyers, Messrs. Sue, Grabbit and Run will soon be seen in your Lordships' House. But should anything of this nature arise again, perhaps if my noble friend wishes to allude to my fortunes or those of my honourable and right honourable friends, we shall know precisely in which direction to turn. The law is always a sure refuge.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that the Government will get value for money by keeping people in employment rather than paying for them to be on the dole?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I am sure that if the noble Lord had noted everything I said about the discussion on Harland and Wolff, he would realise that that is the main object of our discussions.

§ Lord Greenway
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that due to the recent spate of new building of cruise liners, there is a line of thought that the cruise ship industry will have difficulty in filling the number of berths at present available? Is he also aware that in some shipping circles the "Ultimate Dream" is already being referred to as the "Ultimate Nightmare".

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, we shall certainly take on board—perhaps I should rephrase that. We shall certainly note carefully everything that has been said by the noble Lord, particularly his name for this project. The project is still under discussion with Mr. Tikkoo and if anything of a realistic nature can be agreed, I am sure we shall have news in the future.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, if the Minister will not give a small amount of attention to the dignity of this 522 House, will be kindly give it to the dignity of my learned profession by not using the name of Sue, Grabbit and Run as a typical firm of solicitors!

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I think there are other rules which apply as regards my own profession. However if I have said anything in your Lordships' House or possibly outside which might cast aspersions upon the dignity of any profession, then I of all people would not wish to cast any aspersions upon the noble Lord or upon my profession or that of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce or of anybody.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, as regards the reference to our joint profession, is the noble Lord also aware of the other title, Chance-it, Pray-hard and Sign-it?

§ Lord Lyell
No, my Lords.