Social Fund Regulations: Funding (Hansard, 26 January 1988)

§ Lord Moyne
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Skelmersdale)
My Lords, other sources of funding as described in my noble friend's Question only arise in the case of crisis loans. The provision in the social fund manual is similar to the one under which the existing urgent needs payments are made. The social fund manual expressly says that applicants should only he directed to other sources of funding provided: that there is a realistic expectation that help would be available and available in time, if the applicant were to seek it".

§ Lord Moyne
My Lords, in thanking my noble friend for his Answer, may I ask whether he can assure the House that the new arrangements will not result in applicants, who may be neither very capable nor very mobile, having to hurry from pillar to post, from one charity to another, or to their relatives, before the social fund officer can consider their case?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I should like to make it clear to my noble friend and to the House that there is absolutely no question of applicants being pushed from pillar to post. The advice to people is to go to the social fund officer in the local social security office. He will make a crisis loan payment if appropriate. Only if a suitable local charity exists which, as I have said, has the money or service available would he advise the applicant to seek help there; for no other reason.

§ Baroness Jeger
My Lords, would it not be simpler if the Minister were to ask his right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to put some more of his spare money into the social fund rather than expecting charities to subsidise the DHSS?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, that is a possibility which is always in the forefront of the minds of noble Lords opposite. As I have made quite clear, there is no question of expecting charities to subsidise the state in this way. Only if a suitable local charity exists which has the money or service available will it be an appropriate source of help.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, is it correct that the guidance manual for the social fund includes a recommendation that a claimant should be directed towards the use of credit cards? If that is the case, will the Minister comment on a recent report from the National Consumer Council which drew attention to the rapacity of the banks and credit card companies in the interest rates they charge?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, this confusion probably exists because it is not generally realised that crisis loans are available to any member of the public, not just to those on benefit. It is therefore necessary to have regard to all possible methods of repayment. In some cases—I accept by no means all—a credit card may be appropriate.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, if that is the case, have the Government given any consideration to the sources of finance which are more traditional for the poor; for example, the pawnbroker and the money lender?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I have already explained that we are talking not only about the poor and those on benefits. The loans are available to any Member of your Lordships' House and to any member of the public; therefore an appropriate means of repayment has to be ascertained in each case.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, the noble Lord did not answer the second point in his noble friend's question in relation to relatives. Is it intended that people should be encouraged to go to their aged aunts to ask for money before going to the social fund?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, "relatives" means immediate relatives and certainly not aged aunts. What is important to realise is that when an application is made there will be an interview by the social fund officer of the applicant. One of the questions that will be asked at the interview is whether the applicant has access to other funds from his or her immediate relatives. If the answer is no—and only the applicant can answer that question—the subject will be dropped.

§ Baroness Jeger
My Lords, as an aged aunt I am anxious to know the degree of consanguinity which will give me responsibility for the excesses of all my nieces and nephews. How close is a close relative in this context?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, it depends on how far away they live.

§ Lord Diamond
My Lords, has not the Minister made it very clear that what he is talking about are the rights of all citizens? Having regard to the rights of all citizens, how does he reconcile what he says with how the citizen in question will feel if directed to go to a particular charity and appeal in a Dickensian manner for assistance?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I do not think that "a Dickensian manner" would apply to organisations such as the Aberfan Disaster Fund. The charity involved would depend upon the circumstances. One obvious possibility is where a disaster fund is already in existence to meet claims arising from a particular tragedy. There are sometimes local charities which provide grants or services to people in need. For example, if there is a flood in Buckinghamshire and the local WRVS is providing blankets, there seems to be little point in the social fund making duplicate provision.