Higher Education Funding (Hansard, 12 January 1988)

§ Baroness David
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, the Department of Education and Science published a paper entitled Higher Education: Funding Across Sectors to support the 1985 Green Paper published as Cmnd. 9524. The Government have undertaken no subsequent comparative studies. However, the needs of universities and of other higher education institutions are reviewed annually in the course of the Government's decisions on public expenditure.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, will the Minister accept that, even allowing for research costs and the existence in the university sector of expenses for faculties like medicine, there is still at today's prices a differential of something like £500 a year between the amount spent on a university student and on a public sector student?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, I understand that the figures published in the department's December statistical bulletin 14/87 show an even higher differential than that quoted by the noble Baroness. However, the figures in the bulletin were derived simply by dividing relevant expenditure by the relevant student population. They are crude calculations which take no account of differences in the funding arrangements under which each sector operates, nor of the very different research efforts in the two types of institution.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, does the Minister think that is an acceptable situation? I should also like to ask whether attention is being paid to all the criticisms by HMI and by the validating bodies that the amount of money going into public sector higher education is simply not sufficient and that courses may well not be validated in the future unless the resources for equipment and so on are improved.

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, I find I cannot be in agreement with the noble Baroness on her last point. However, I would judge that the greater clarity in planning and accountability which are likely to be introduced with the new Universities Funding Council and the Polytechnics and Colleges Funding Council in the proposals in the Education Reform Bill will make comparisons of various kinds much more possible.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, do not the figures, which the noble Baroness has not quoted, show that the country is getting first-rate higher education on the cheap from the polytechnics? This is seen throughout the country in building maintenance and replacement of equipment, where comparatively small items have now become major capital items. No amount of extra accountability will cure the situation. What the polytechnics need is a great deal more money.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, that is what we all need.

§ Baroness Hooper
Hear, hear, my Lords! The Government certainly recognise the excellent job which has been done in the polytechnics over the years. It is precisely because the polytechnics and colleges have been so successful in what they do best that the Government are offering them the new deal set out in the Education Reform Bill. Nevertheless, the two sectors are not the same.

§ Lord Annan
My Lords, does not the noble Baroness think that these questions are misjudged? Surely one of the things which has bedevilled the expansion of higher education in this country is parity of esteem between institutions in which it is 1071 thought necessary that every institution be paid exactly the same amount and every institution have exactly the same length of degree. Is it not necessary that there should be differentials between different instititions?

§ Baroness Hooper
Yes, indeed, my Lords. The situation is not as simple as some noble Lords may have suggested. We believe the two sectors do retain and will retain differences in important aspects of their provision. The universities, after all, have a considerable commitment to basic research, while the polytechnics and colleges are mainly teaching institutions. The Government will continue to address the funding of all higher education on the basis that the provision is different.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, granted all that, surely the need to have the courses sufficiently well endowed for them to be validated by CNAA and so on and to be thought adequate by HMI is extremely important. Whatever the noble Lord, Lord Annan, says, it seems to me that this is something which needs to be taken into consideration.

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, it is taken into consideration.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there are universities which manage to get in four terms a year rather than three? Thus they sometimes get the same amount with better results by courses lasting two years instead of three. If this were more widely adopted and we had this competition, it might well be possible to expand quality and standards, as well as the number of people in our universities and polytechnics. Could this not be considered most seriously in view of the results already being obtained at Buckingham?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, yes, I am fully aware of the institution which conducts its arrangements in that way. All I can say is that in the debate and discussions which have been carried on in the light of the Education Reform Bill, all manner of new ideas and concepts were brought up. The whole question of our total education system is under continual review.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, will the noble Baroness say what is the good of parity of esteem if the polytechnics cannot afford to paint the front door, repair a flat roof or replace the computer? They really are hard up and the position is building into an extremely serious situation. Will the noble Baroness recognise that these past five or six years of neglect of building repairs and maintenance and replacement of equipment have led to an appalling situation?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, the Government's proposals in the Education Reform Bill are to give the polytechnics autonomy and to release them from the financial control of local education authorities. With the powers of financial delegation that they will now have they will be far better able to cope with the priorities of each individual institution.

§ Lord Monkswell
My Lords, what assurance can the Minister give that central government funding of polytechnics will be any better than local authority funding of polytechnics, given that it is the Government's restrictions on local authority funding which are causing the problems to start with?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord is aware of the true position which is outlined in the Bill. The funding of the polytechnics will be given to the PCFC—the new funding council that is to be set up—but each individual institution will have considerable control of its own financial arrangements.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, will the noble Baroness say who will be giving the money to the PCFC?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, ultimately it is the taxpayer who gives the money to everybody.