Government Departments: Relocation (Hansard, 7 December 1988)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, the 1979 programme is nearing completion—5,560 posts have been dispersed, and planning is in hand for more. Over 6,000 further posts have been relocated from the South-East at departmental initiative.
566 Departments are now observing Treasury guidelines to review their work locations, seeking sites offering operating advantages. Locations subject to the Government's regional policy and urban programme will be considered. Relocations require careful planning and sensitive implementation, which take time. Most major departments have substantial reviews in hand and Parliament will be kept informed of progress.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, if the Government really believe in decentralisation and in bringing jobs to the regions—the Government frequently repeat those criteria—presumably the Minister would agree that movement to the regions reduces costs considerably. Why do the Government not do more of this relocation? Does the Minister not agree that the transfer of the national savings certificates division, for example, to Durham has been a resounding success?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I think the noble Lord is right. There have been some very successful moves. Departments will continue to look for sites which offer easier labour markets, reductions in accommodation and other costs, and increased operational efficiency.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, can the noble Lord say how many government posts have been transferred to Northumberland, Durham and Cumbria under this Government?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as regards the northern region, which I think includes those areas—if it does not, I do not have the relevant figures—a substantial number of Civil Service jobs are in that region. At 1st April 1988 there were 34,000 jobs in the region. In terms of civil servants per 1,000 of population, the northern region scores almost as high as the South-East, despite the latter including the national capital and the seat of government.
The noble Lord will be interested particularly in Newcastle, where the DHSS created 600 new posts last year. In Darlington, the Department of Education and Science is now transferring work which will create 30 new jobs.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, can my noble friend give similar figures for Scotland?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords. I cannot give figures for Scotland, but I know that certain departments have transferred substantial parts of their operation to Scotland, including the Overseas Development Agency. That was a successful move.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, the noble Lord gave us the overall figures of posts that have been transferred. Can he give us the percentage of the total strength of the Civil Service that has been transferred? The global figure does not tell us very much in terms of progress.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I understand that in total some 45 per cent. of the Civil Service is located outside the South of England.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord will have anticipated my question. Will he be good enough to say how many government units have been relocated in Wales, and how many jobs have been created there during the past 10 years?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot give the noble Lord details as specific as that. From my own personal experience in the Department of Transport, I know that the largest unit of all within that department, the DVLC, is located at Swansea. It is very happy there.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, the noble Lord made no attempt to answer my question. The departments he mentioned were transferred to the North by Labour Governments. The DHSS was transferred by the post-war Labour Government and the national savings certificates branch by the Wilson Government. Will the noble Lord say how many jobs have been transferred to the North-East by this Government during their term in office?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the noble Lord obviously was not listening to my answer, because I quoted an example from last year.

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, in 1978 the Labour Government decided to move 3,500 jobs to the North-West and that move was in progress. Can the Minister tell us whether it is now the Government's intention to restore that move?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the Government's policy on that subject has been announced by my right honourable friend the Paymaster General. The policy is that it is now for departments to decide in their own interests what moves to make and therefore there is no central target. However, as I have attempted to indicate, there are plans under way and a number of moves are taking place.

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, does that mean that the Government are relinquishing power to make such transfers? Will the Minister tell us whether the Government intend to take powers to tell departments to move to the regions?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
No, my Lords. I am not quite sure how the noble Lord distinguishes between the Government and the departments which represent the Government.

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, the Government are elected by the people of this country. The politicians are supposed to tell the civil servants what to do; the civil servants are not supposed to tell the politicians what to do.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, the Minister gave me the percentage figure for jobs in the region. What I asked for was the percentage which had been transferred. That is what we are interested in: how many are being moved out of London? We know that there are many jobs in the regions. What percentage has been transferred from the centre to the regions?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, in my original Answer I gave the total since 1979, which was approaching 12,000 jobs. What that represents as a percentage of the total I am afraid I cannot say.

§ Lord Mottistone
My Lords, will my noble friend say when a government of either party will transfer some large government office to the Isle of Wight?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am afraid that I know of no plans at present which would involve such a transfer.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, the Minister did not listen to either of my questions. Is he not aware that the departments of the DES which are now based in Darlington were transferred when I was Secretary of State? Will he please tell us how many Civil Service jobs have been transferred from London to the North-East during the tenure of this Government? Will he consider transferring the whole of the DES to Sunderland to make up for the Government's wanton closure of the shipyard there?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I listened very carefully to the noble Lord's questions. I gave examples of further moves which have taken place: last year the DHSS moved 600 jobs to Newcastle and there was a further move by the Department of Education and Science to Darlington. Those are new moves which have occurred since this Government came to power.

§ Lord John-Mackie
My Lords, have the Government any plans to move private offices out of London? One of the biggest insurance companies has its headquarters in Perth in Scotland and I understand that it does very well.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, we certainly have no plans to force people to move out of London. I am sure that the noble Lord is quite right and that there are advantages in transfer. I should point out that when the Overseas Development Administration moved a part of its operation to East Kilbride my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland confirmed that, taking account of all the quantifiable costs and benefits, the dispersal is estimated to have produced a significant saving in national resource terms of some £14.9 million. Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of the staff who transferred expressed the opinion that the quality of life was higher in East Kilbride and preferred their new location.

§ Lord John-Mackie
My Lords, I point out that I did not use the word "force"; I used the word "encourage".

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, the original Answer given to me by the Minister seemed to consist of half promises. When can we have something firm about future policy on dispersal?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, in my original Answer I said what the policy was, as the noble Lord will see if he cares to read what I said.