The Mappa Mundi (Hansard, 6 December 1988)

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, yesterday in another place my right honourable friend the Minister for the Arts expressed his concern and his wish that a solution involving both the private and public sectors be achieved which would be acceptable to all the interested parties. He wishes me to reaffirm his belief that it should be possible to find such a solution, one that will keep the map in Britain, and he will be working with all the parties to that end.

§ Lord St. John of Fawsley
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that encouraging reply. But does she not agree that it is a flagrant breach of trust to offer a map, which is part of the national heritage in general and that of Hereford in particular, for sale at public auction? Will the Government act swiftly in this matter by raising the money in conjunction with the noble Lord, Lord Charteris of Amisfield, to make sure that the sale does not take place? In the long run is not the solution to this problem to recognise that our cathedrals are national treasures which should be supported by the nation?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, it is still early days. Time is needed to work out a solution to this whole problem. On the question of treating cathedrals as a national responsibility, your Lordships will recall that it was in response to the Churches' own preference in 1977 to give priority to parish churches, but to exclude cathedrals from the Government's general programme of church repair grants. But if the Church of England now feels that circumstances have changed so radically that the present policy is out of date, English Heritage will be happy to talk to it. But I should warn your Lordships that such a change might lead to a reordering of priorities within the historic churches repair grants budget.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury said that he would welcome the Government reviewing with the Church the relations between Church and state so that important ecclesiastical treasures throughout the country can get the support of the central Exchequer?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, the same answer that I have just given applies to this question.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, should not the Government avoid being too intrusive in this matter? Surely this is a matter where the Church itself should decide how to dispose of its possessions in order to carry out its obligations to cathedrals and to the Church? If we move along this road, someone will suggest that we nationalise the cathedrals. That is something we do not want.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister in another place stands ready to act as an honest broker in all the discussions which take place between the various bodies which have become involved in this proposed sale. As I said before, there is time to work out a solution because many discussions will be taking place in the near future.

§ Lord Jenkins of Hillhead
My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that it is highly desirable not only that the map should remain in this country, but that it should remain at Hereford with which it has long historical associations, and where it is far more likely to be seen and to arouse interest than if it went into some general collection?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I should remind the noble Lord that the map is held by Hereford Cathedral as the custodian of the map, although the cathedral is not the actual owner of the map. If the cathedral can think of other ways of preserving the map—as I hope it will—as part of Hereford's treasures, then naturally it will remain at Hereford.

§ Lord Jenkins of Hillhead
My Lords, if the cathedral is the custodian and not the owner, how is it able to sell the map?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, it is one of the national treasures. It is my understanding that the strict interpretation is that the cathedral is the custodian of the map.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, every piece of property in this country has an owner of some kind. If Hereford Cathedral chapter is not the owner but the custodian, who in fact is the legal owner of this object?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, the nation.

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I have to say that I honestly do not know. I took advice from the noble Lord, Lord Charteris, before I entered the Chamber. It was he who informed me that the cathedral was the custodian of the map.

§ Lord Charteris of Amisfield
My Lords, perhaps I may clarify that point. The point is that the dean and chapter are the custodians of the map in a moral sense. That does not mean that they do not own the map, but it is rather different from merely owning it.

§ The Lord Bishop of Guildford
My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is before the General Synod of the Church of England at the moment draft legislation which, if it eventually receives Royal Assent, will make it impossible for a dean and chapter to act unilaterally without obtaining further advice and agreement?

§ Baroness Trumpington
Yes, my Lords; I am aware of that fact. That is a matter for the Church authorities. Perhaps I may return to the previous question. Information has now reached me that the dean and chapter own the map.

§ Baroness Birk
My Lords—

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords—

§ Baroness Birk
You have already asked a question.
My Lords, in order to keep the map in this country, and recognising that the resources of the National Memorial Heritage Fund and other heritage bodies are not infinite, would the Government be prepared to give a crumb of that contingency fund, from which they were prepared to pay £100 million for the Thyssen collection, in order to solve the future of the map? In the event of an appeal being lauched, would the Government be prepared to encourage that initiative by matching it pound for pound?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I think that I must go back to the original point. We are still holding discussions with the various bodies involved and it is very much up to the dean to decide whether or not to sell the map. Once those discussions have taken place that kind of question can be examined.

§ Lord Montagu of Beaulieu
My Lords, will my noble friend agree that a few weeks ago very few people in this country knew of the existence of the Mappa Mundi? Will she also agree that after this welcome golden shower of publicity the dean and chapter may be well advised to show enterprise and responsibility by placing the map on public show, charging the public and using the income for the conservation of the cathedral? If they have any doubts about the tourist value, perhaps the dean and chapter will consult the English Tourist Board.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I agree entirely with the sentiments expressed by my noble friend. There must be very good opportunities for marketing such a treasure by putting it on display. However, that is essentially a matter for the dean.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, in answering the right reverend Prelate my noble friend said that she knew the Synod was to recommend that a dean and chapter should obtain advice before disposing of articles such as the map. Can she say from whom it is suggested that they should take that advice?

§ Baroness Trumpington
No, my Lords. I think that is a matter for the Church itself.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, will the noble Baroness agree that what emerges from these exchanges is that Her Majesty's Government have no policy whatsoever towards the future of British cathedrals and their contents, which are national treasures? is she aware that that would be the responsibility of successive governments? Will she convey that to her right honourable friend and make sure that there is a policy which can be defined to the nation within an appreciable time?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I hesitate to disagree with the noble Lord absolutely and fundamentally. However, when I answered an earlier question I pointed out that if the Church of England considers that circumstances have changed since the cathedrals were excluded from the Government's general programme of general church repair grants, etc., English Heritage will be delighted to discuss the matter. Those bodies—English Heritage and National Heritage—were formed in order to do that very work. However, I warned that their purses are not infinite and therefore it could lead to a reordering of priorities within the historic churches repair grants budget.

§ Lord St. John of Fawsley
My Lords, will my noble friend accept that what has emerged from these exchanges is a very welcome determination from herself to do everything that she can to save the map for the nation?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend and I am confident that a solution will be found.