Nature Conservancy Council: Report (Hansard, 6 December 1988)

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the Nature Conservancy Council expects to submit a report on its review of national nature reserves by the end of the year. It will be a report to the Government. The results of the review will be announced in due course.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. Can he tell the House who will be consulted about the findings of that report? For example, will the conservation bodies be consulted, and who else is likely to be consulted? Can he also tell us what we are to deduce from the fact that even in advance of the publication of the report the Nature Conservancy Council is to experience a cut in its funding for next year? I am aware that there is a £1.2 million increase in the amount of money paid, but £500,000 of that is earmarked for Abernethy and, allowing for inflation, the remaining money represents a cut in real terms of 5 per cent. in the budget. Is there any connection between what may happen as a result of the report and that cut in the council's money?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, we shall certainly consult interested parties before any final decisions are taken. With regard to the finance that the Government have put into the Nature Conservancy Council, I think that it is very important to put the matter in perspective. In 1979–80 the amount of money which the Government placed was some £8 million, and next year it will be in excess of £40 million. That is an increase of 150 per cent. in real terms after inflation.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, I do not think that the Minister can continue to hide behind 10 year-old statistics. I asked a question about next year's funding. Can he answer that question?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, an increase of 150 per cent. in real terms after inflation is a very substantial increase over a decade. I am not avoiding the question. We shall increase expenditure next year, and we have increased it enormously in the past decade.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, I apologise, but—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, I am sorry, but this is a fact and the Minister is avoiding it. There is to be a cut in real terms for next year of 5 per cent. One cannot escape that fact.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I have at no point denied that expenditure next year will increase from £38.5 million to just over £40 million. I have reminded the noble Baroness of the very important fact that expenditure in real terms over those 10 years has risen by 150 per cent. and have put the matter into perspective.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, the Minister has given an assurance that other conservation bodies will be consulted about the activities of the Nature Conservancy Council. Can I have an assurance from the Minister that other bodies which are affected by the decisions of the Nature Conservancy Council, such as the forestry industry, will be consulted before statements are made on behalf of the council?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, I should hope very much that my first supplementary reply, which indicated that we shall consult all interested parties before final decisions are taken, would include forestry interests.

§ Baroness White
My Lords, will the Minister enlighten the House as to what mandate the Secretary of State for the Environment thinks he has to hand over national nature reserves to non-public bodies except following a revision of scientific opinion as to their scientific value?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to the fact that of 234 national nature reserves only 63 are owned outright by the Nature Conservancy Council. The remainder are for the most part owned by private individuals.

§ Baroness White
My Lords, that does not answer my question in the least. A number of nature reserves are owned by the Nature Conservancy Council. Anyone who has read the report which came out a little over a week ago, under the name of Mr. Wilkinson, who is the very admirable chairman of the Nature Conservancy Council, will recognise that the council itself is deeply disturbed at what it understands to be the intention of the Government; namely, to deprive the council of its authority and ownership of such nature reserves as it owns and to hand over those nature reserves to other bodies which would have to finance and manage them. It may be desirable in certain instances—

A noble Lord
Too long!

§ Baroness White
I am, my Lords, trying to get an answer that really answers the question. What mandate has the Secretary of State for the Environment to hand over public property of that kind to non-public bodies without giving a scientific reason for the basis of his decision?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the review will consider whether any of the reserves owned by the Nature Conservancy Council could be transferred to private owners or voluntary bodies. However, it is very important to remember that the proviso would be that there were adequate safeguards for conservation in those circumstances.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether the new director of the council has a permanent appointment?

§ Lord Hesketh
No, my Lords. I shall have to write to the noble Lord on that point.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, following the question—

§ Baroness White
My Lords, is it not the case that the new director is in fact only seconded from the Department of the Environment?

§ Baroness David
My Lords, following the question of my noble friend Lady White, can the Minister say whether it is the policy, or indeed the wish, of the Secretary of State to prevent the Nature Conservancy Council acquiring any new national nature reserves at any time? There is at least one, at Caenlochan—a very important reserve—that is up for sale at the moment. Can the Minister please respond to that question?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, it is certainly not the intention of the department to prevent any further increase in the number of national nature reserves. In fact, one has been created every two weeks since we started. At the moment there is only a temporary hold on new nature reserves. In exceptional circumstances that could be overruled as well if there were important circumstances which required the immediate implementation of such a nature reserve.