Children: Welfare Milk (Hansard, 26 November 1987)

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Skelmersdale)
Yes, my Lords.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, surely if that is a fact, and the Minister wants to ensure that those who need milk for nutritional purposes get it, he should leave the present welfare food order alone. Low income groups will then continue to get milk tokens after April 1988.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
No, my Lords. I do not think that that is the case. Children in families receiving income support—who are generally those in greatest need—will continue to be entitled to free milk up to the age of five and to free school meals which may, if the local authority so decides, include milk. For those who receive family credit after April 1988, their benefit will include a cash amount of £2.55 per week per child in place of free milk for the under-fives and free school meals for the over-fives. The actual cost of the milk which the cash replaces is £1.82.

§ Baroness Jeger
My Lords, can the Minister say how many families will be worse off and how many families will be better off as a result of these changes? Can be also say how much money the Government are saving, because any money that the Government save is to the detriment of those who have hitherto been receiving it?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, we had a long debate on this subject and the noble Baroness knows perfectly well that many more children in low income families will be receiving benefit than ever before as a result of our social security changes which take effect in April 1988. As regards the detailed question she asked, around 200,000 children in family income supplement and low income families will lose their entitlement to free milk, but around 300,000 children under five will receive the cash addition in family credit.

§ Lord Banks
My Lords, is the noble Lord satisfied that, after losses in housing benefit are offset against gains in family credit, all the parents concerned will in fact be fully reimbursed for the loss of free milk?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I have explained exactly the position so far as free milk replacement schemes are concerned. I suggest to the noble Lord that there is really very little relevance to children's nutritional welfare in housing benefit.

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister how many cases of rickets there are among children in Britain at this moment?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the noble Baroness can ask, but I am afraid that I do not have the answer. I shall have to write to her on that specific point.

§ Lord Banks
My Lords, does the Minister agree that if the amount of housing benefit does affect the total amount of resources available for the family, and a compensation is given under one benefit but a deduction is made from another, a family may not have any extra money in order to make good the loss of free milk? Is that not logical?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I must admit that there is a certain relevance in that. But really the amounts that I have described represent an increase in the amount of money going for children's welfare in respect of milk.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, does the noble Lord recall that in the many representations which were put in the course of the discussions in reply to the Green Paper, many of the fears expressed concerned two facts: first, that the cash replacement for the vouchers would be inadequate and would not be index-linked adequately; and, secondly, that it might not find its way to the mother, which is more important than anything? What have the Government done about that?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the cash replacement is, of course, for those low income families who are already earning and who are well used to managing the budgets that they have through their earnings. So I think that it is absolutely the right thing to do.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, while I appreciate what the Minister said about those who are at present receiving the welfare benefit, and that the food, which is primarily milk, will continue, will be acknowledge that there are other groups who are in great need of the nutritional value of milk and who in future will receive cash? Surely the Minister appreciates that, if we value the benefits of milk as a food, we ought to do everything possible to ensure that it is drunk. Is the Minister aware that it has been calculated that under the scheme 35 million litres of whole milk a year will not be consumed? Is the Minister satisfied that this is a proper way of using public money, particularly in the case of those who are on a low income?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, if that amount of free milk provision is not being used, then I suggest it is a total waste of public funds. As regards the more important point of the noble Lord's question, I am advised by my medical advisers that the special nutritional advantages of milk for very young children, as compared with other foods, reduce as the children get older; so that by the time children are around five or older there is normally only limited nutritional advantage in milk rather than other types of food.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, perhaps I may help the Minister. I could have been misunderstood. The 35 million litres of whole milk is milk that will not then be available once the Government's intentions are carried through. In other words, it will be denied to the present categories who at the moment enjoy it.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I am sorry if I misunderstood the noble Lord. Nonetheless it is a fact that, as I said, the nutritional value of milk decreases as the child gets older, and for those non-earning families free milk will continue to be available in the normal way.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, does the Minister recollect that when mothers were asked whether they would prefer free school meals and milk or a cash replacement, eight out of 10 said that they would prefer free school meals and milk?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, that may well be so, but local authorities will still be free to provide milk to children in income support families, who are those in the greatest need, where they consider this to be a requisite part of the free school meals.