§ 3.11 p.m.
Lord Campbell of CroyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will exercise their powers under Section 3 of the Telecommunications Act 1984 to ensure that any proposal to sell or to provide lists of names, with telephone numbers, to be used to promote sales of goods or services by unsolicited telephone calls is not pursued by British Telecom.
§ Lord BeaverbrookMy Lords, it falls to the Director General of Telecommunications to consider such issues. It is he, rather than Ministers, who has powers under the Telecommunications Act to propose modifications to British Telecom's operating licence where he deems this to be necessary in the light of his duties.
Lord Campbell of CroyMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his reply, so far as concerns the powers of the Government. Has he seen press reports which confirm that particular lists prepared in categories and areas would make it worth while for salesmen to embark on telephone campaigns, much to the inconvenience and irritation of many of those at the receiving end?
§ Lord BeaverbrookMy Lords, reviews by successive governments suggest that perhaps a ban on teleselling would be impractical and unnecessary. However, there are certain safeguards for those who may be telephoned by salesmen, and the Office of Fair Trading has issued guidelines which are now being printed in British Telecom phone books. The guidelines cover such areas as the time of the call and caller identification. I understand that those guidelines are adhered to in general. Any complaints in that area can be referred to the company concerned and to the Office of Fair Trading.
§ Lord Williams of ElvelMy Lords, I mean no disrespect to the noble Lord, but does he accept that yet again we are disappointed that the noble Lord the Secretary of State is not in his place to answer a Question directed at his department? Does he further accept that the activity to which his noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy refers is pernicious and should be discouraged by all means, and that the only saving grace is that in the current state of our telephone system so few calls actually get through to their destination?
§ Lord BeaverbrookMy Lords, we are satisfied that the Office of Fair Trading has issued sufficiently strict guidelines.
§ Lord BroxbourneMy Lords, while my noble friend is no doubt correct that jurisdictionally this is a matter for the assuredly important but rather impersonal and inaccessible functionary referred to in his Answer to my noble friend, do not the Government at least have powers of exhortation and guidance, and will they employ them to further the very proper objectives so well put forward by my noble friend?
§ Lord BeaverbrookMy Lords, of course the Government want to see the proper use of British Telecom services. I shall draw the remarks of my noble friend to the attention of the director general.
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that, notwithstanding the remarks that have fallen from the Front Bench opposite, the great majority in this House is full of admiration for the way in which he answers Questions?
§ Lord BeaverbrookMy Lords, I am very grateful to my noble and learned friend.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, returning to the Question on the Order Paper, will the noble Lord take every opportunity to try to get into the heads of British Telecom that the ordinary public does not relish the thought of being telephoned by people who are a nuisance and who, when they telephone, have no intention of keeping within specified hours or a short period of time? People can be rung up at any hour at all of the night. Will the noble Lord guarantee to bring those facts to the attention of British Telecom?
§ Lord BeaverbrookYes, my Lords. I think that British Telecom is aware of that situation. As I said, the Office of Fair Trading has issued guidelines. If customers are rung up at inconvenient hours they should immediately complain, and if that does not remedy the matter they should complain to the Office of Fair Trading. People can always put the telephone down, and that is probably easier than ending visits by salesmen at the door.
§ Lord MishconMy Lords, I always pay tribute to the manner in which the noble Lord answers Questions, if not always to the content of the Answers. Is he prepared to indicate strongly to the director general that unless the guidelines are obeyed the Government will consider legislation?
§ Lord BeaverbrookMy Lords, we do not believe that that is necessary at the moment. There is one further safeguard that we hope to see implemented; namely, the option of a telephone preference scheme whereby customers can opt out, which the OFT and the British Direct Marketing Association are considering. I understand that British Telecom is supporting those moves.
Lord Campbell of CroyMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that when I tabled this Question I did not expect that my noble friend the Secretary of State would be present in the Chamber to reply to it himself, since I am aware of all his other duties? Is he also aware that putting the telephone down is not the answer in all cases, because there are many elderly and disabled people for whom it is an effort to get to the telephone? Nevertheless, they have to answer the telephone because it is their main link with the world and the call might be important.
§ Lord BeaverbrookMy Lords, of course that is the case. As I have said, we hope that the guidelines of the Office of Fair Trading are sufficient, but if they are not we shall have to look at the matter again.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, I do not know who made the recommendation that if people did not wish to receive such telephone calls they could apply to go ex-directory, but does the noble Lord not agree that anybody who makes a suggestion like that has really no idea why we are protesting?
§ Lord BeaverbrookMy Lords, I have not suggested that they should become ex-directory. People who are ex-directory would already be excluded from such lists, if they were to be sold.
§ The Earl of PerthMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether it would be possible for those on the lists to be asked whether they agree before their names are included?
§ Lord BeaverbrookMy Lords, to a certain extent they have already asked to be included because they are already in the telephone book, unless they have asked to be excluded from it. Therefore, they are already on the list that is issued by British Telecom to its consumers.
§ The Earl of PerthMy Lords, I think that I have been misunderstood. I understand that my name is in the telephone book and that it is there for people's convenience. But it is not for the convenience of people if they are specially chosen, without being asked, by people who want to bother them by trying to sell goods.
§ Lord BeaverbrookMy Lords, I will certainly draw that interesting idea to the attention of British Telecom.