§ 2.48 p.m.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
629 The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Prime Minister will visit South Africa in order to express, as she did in the USSR, the British people's dedication to human rights by meeting at the British Embassy in South Africa representatives of dissident movements and visiting typical African locations in the company of black leaders.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has no plans to visit South Africa.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether it is not a fact that on the Prime Minister's visit to Moscow she carried out the activities which are described in my Question on South Africa? Historically is not South Africa far more important to us than the Soviet Union? Therefore should we not be active in South Africa, on behalf of those who are denied human rights, to the same degree at least that we are in the Soviet Union?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I am quite sure that the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, would not in any way underestimate the great importance of relations between East and West at the present time. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has repeatedly made clear her total condemnation of apartheid. She has not visited South Africa during her term of office but she has met a number of black South African leaders, including Chief Buthelezi, Archbishop Tutu and Chief Mabuza. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State visited South Africa in July 1986 and visited Soweto. During his visit black opposition leaders refused to see him. Since that time we have noted that a number of ANC leaders have met FCO Ministers.
§ Lord KinnairdMy Lords, will the Minister not agree that this is a clear case of fools rushing in where angels fear to tread?
The Lord Bishop of ManchesterMy Lords, will the noble Baroness agree that, in the light of the swing to the right in the white South African elections, and the deteriorating situation throughout southern Africa, it is of the greatest importance that Her Majesty's Government show sympathy for those who appear to speak for the oppressed people in southern Africa, of whom the African National Congress and SWAPO for Namibia are among the chief?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, as I have indicated, my right honourable and learned friend the Foreign Secretary met Mr. Tambo in September 1986. He met Archbishop Tutu in March of this year. Perhaps I may remind the right reverend Prelate that since 1979 we have maintained a wide-ranging aid programme to South Africa and the neighbouring states. We have given £1 million for training 100 black South Africans in the United Kingdom and £250,000 for British Council activities in South Africa. We have recently announced an additional £15.75 million over five years for assistance in southern Africa.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, following the recent election in South Africa, is the Minister aware that Archbishop Tutu, to whom she specifically referred, said that South Africa had reached its darkest stage? To what extent has the situation there, following the election, been considered by Her Majesty's Government, and what steps do they propose to take to ameliorate the position and the appalling possibilities of a great crisis with much bloodshed in South Africa?
Does the noble Baroness not agree that Her Majesty's Government have an important responsibility to take positive steps to seek to achieve a settlement in South Africa? Is there any significance in the appointment of Mr. Robin Renwick as Ambassador to South Africa? We read his book with great interest. Finally, what attitude do Her Majesty's Government now have towards the imposition of economic sanctions?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, as regards the election in South Africa, the outcome is a matter for the white electorate. It is disappointing that they have clearly voted against any major change of policy. We have made absolutely plain our position on apartheid. In answering the right reverend Prelate, I indicated what we have done to help black South Africans, the front line states and countries in South Africa. Our view on sanctions is well known. It is interesting that during his visit to London last week President Chissano from Mozambique said that he knew that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister shared the aim of eradicating apartheid in South Africa.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, did my noble friend see the article by Natan Sharansky in yesterday's Times? It pointed out the astonishing double standard which the West is taking in that 5 million Soviet citizens are in camps or prisons and that, as a percentage of the population, the position is 10 times more serious than the very serious position in South Africa. Is it not possible to make representations on account of those minorities as well as the minorities in South Africa?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, yes. The answer to my noble friend is that Her Majesty's Government deplore the violation of human rights wherever they may occur.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, will the noble Baroness accept that two appalling and frightening aspects of inhuman behaviour do not make for good behaviour? In so far as she has clearly said that the Government have rightly expressed their detestation of apartheid, can we not on this occasion make it plain that we also support the United States of America? That country has not only expressed, with us, its detestation of apartheid, but is now beginning to inflict a form of industrial control leading to what it believes will make the South Africans think again. Can we not support our ally, the United States of America, in its endeavours?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the noble Lord will be aware of the view of Her Majesty's Government as regards economic sanctions.
§ Lord GisboroughMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that, in spite of the results of the election, there is at the moment a strong feeling for reform in South Africa and that it may be necessary to use a little more carrot to encourage them to set about achieving that? Is the Minister also aware that there are 14 different interests there? If we expect them to settle the problem with 14 different interests, should we not show them how to achieve that in Ireland, where we have only two?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the answer to my noble friend is that we totally condemn apartheid. In 1987 we shall continue our efforts to work with our partners in the European Community and other like-minded countries to promote dialogue towards peaceful fundamental change, and we reject violence on all sides. There is no easy solution. Punitive sanctions are a false panacea and some of its advocates are already having second thoughts. The South African election results show that the United States congressional sanctions were counterproductive with the white electorate.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords—
§ The Lord President of the Council (Viscount Whitelaw)My Lords, I think that one noble Lord must sit down while the other speaks.
Lord Paget of NorthamptonMy Lords, will the noble Baroness agree that, since the days of Lord Palmerston, it has been a fundamental principle of British foreign policy not to interfere in the domestic affairs of other sovereign states? Will the Minister assure the House that that principle still applies?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I set out the policy of the British Government in respect of this matter in answer to my noble friend Lord Gisborough.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, perhaps the first intervention from these Benches will be in order after four from the Labour Opposition. While the House accepts that the Government have always made clear their detestation of apartheid, could they not now begin to make clear their admiration and respect for democracy, and point out to South Africa and the world that it will get nowhere by having elections among the small white minority while leaving the large black majority disenfranchised?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, we support democracy. We have promoted the principle of peaceful dialogue within South Africa by talking to all the parties. We have implemented a programme of positive and restrictive measures which have been agreed with our 12 Community partners and the Commonwealth, and we have fulfilled all our undertakings. We have helped black South Africans: 80 young black South African students have recently arrived here on scholarships.
632 We have taken a firm line on abuses of human rights. Our ambassador made a major démarche on 19th December on behalf of the Twelve and we have assisted the front-line states in reducing their economic and transport dependence on South Africa. But at the end of the day I say to the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, and to those who think like him that it is the South Africans themselves who will achieve change. External influence is limited and the prime responsibility lies with the South African Government.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, may I thank the noble Baroness for her reply to me and ask her whether it would not highlight the coming general election if a statement were made during the campaign that Britain was not only opposed to apartheid in word but was prepared to take action, as suggested in my Question, to end it?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I appreciate the sincerity of the point that the noble Lord makes. I hope he will feel that in answer to his supplementary question I have made plain the steps we have taken in meeting leaders from all parts of South Africa and in our condemnation of violations of human rights wherever they occur.
§ Lord MonsonMy Lords, reverting to the original Question, does the noble Baroness agree that there is no point in the Prime Minister, or indeed any overseas visitor for that matter, visiting South African black townships, as they are now called, without during the same visit seeing similar townships in other parts of Africa so as to be able to make a fair comparison?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I have no doubt there is much in what the noble Lord says, but I have nothing more to add as regards the policy of the Government.