South Africa (Hansard, 22 July 1987)

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Glenarthur)
My Lords, we and our EC partners are in full agreement that we should do what we can to promote genuine dialogue in South Africa. Our common aim is the establishment by peaceful means of a non-racial, representative system of government.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, that does not answer my Question. Does the Minister recall that in 1983 at the Heads of Government Conference in New Delhi the Prime Minister signed a communique, Clause 15 of which stated: Heads of Government were of the view that only the eradication of apartheid and the establishment of majority rule on the basis of the free and fair exercise of universal adult suffrage by all the people in a united and non-fragmented South Africa can lead to a just and lasting solution of the explosive situation prevailing in Southern Africa". Does that remain the policy of Her Majesty's Government?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord will realise that we totally condemn apartheid. We shall continue our efforts in 1987 to work with the 12 other like-minded countries to promote dialogue toward peaceful fundamental change. We reject violence from all sides.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, can the Minister confirm to the House that under the present Danish presidency new measures are in course of preparation? Can he say first of all whether Her Majesty's Government are engaged in that preparation of new measures and secondly whether they are likely to support them?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, there is a wide spectrum of opinion on South Africa among the 12. There is no majority for a fresh round of restrictive measures. In any case the issue is not at present under serious consideration. The Government's position on punitive sanctions is well known. I do not think that there would be any value in action which would achieve nothing or be counter-productive. At present the most practical step is to aid black South Africans and South Africa's neighbours. Indeed, Britain is actively providing economic and military training assistance to Mozambique. Those are very much the burdens and concerns which underlie the Question of the noble Lord.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, will Her Majesty's Government make a real effort on this occasion not to be alone against the other 11?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, Britain is not alone in believing that the time is not opportune for a further EC declaration. The Foreign Ministers of the 12 issued a declaration on South Africa as recently as 25th May.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, is the Minister aware that there are a great number of educated blacks who do not want one man one vote because they fully realise that it may lead to inter-tribal destruction and the ruination of the economy for everybody? Does he agree that the important step for South Africa is the establishment and growth of a strong middle-class which is capable of taking responsibility and that it is far more important for the world to take action to encourage that development than to try to destroy the country as it is?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am sure that there is much in what my noble friend says but I think that he will also be aware that we are implementing a programme of positive and restrictive measures which have been agreed with the 12 and the Commonwealth. Indeed, I believe that on many occasions my noble friend Lady Young listed the various actions which the Government are taking in order to help.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is a case for thinking that this continent, which successively introduced the ideas of Communism, Fascism, Nazi-ism and Phalangism, might have the modesty to keep its ideas at home and leave other continents to manage their own business?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, whatever the views of all those who are interested in this part of the world, I think that the noble Lord will realise that we totally condemn apartheid and that it is important that we work in the ways I have described toward its eventual disappearance.

§ Lord Walston
My Lords, in view of our past association with South Africa and the fact that Commonwealth countries are now front line states and greatly affected by the situation there, does the Minister agree that in this country we have a special responsibility to take all the initiatives that we can in order to bring the present state of affairs to an end?

§ Lord Glenarthur
Yes, my Lords, that is why we have taken part in the implementation of many different initiatives.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, does the Minister agree that many people would respect the EC more if it were to become equally zealous about the absence of democracy in scores of other countries throughout the world?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, the present Question deals with South Africa. I do not propose to go beyond that.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, if it is the Government's policy, it does not 1385 matter where an absence of democracy exists? If there is any form of apartheid and no principle of one man one vote, how can he in any way agree with some of the statements that have been made from the Benches behind him, which are in direct contradiction to the central theme of the Government's policy? Ought he not to say that such is not the Government's policy, which is to oppose apartheid and support one man one vote?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I think that I made myself perfectly plain when I answered my noble friend Lord Gisborough. The noble Lord may have misunderstood me. We regularly set out from this Box our views on the situation concerning South Africa's affairs. I repeat that we totally condemn apartheid and will continue our efforts in 1987 to work with the 12 and other like-minded countries to promote dialogue. In the end, that dialogue is the key to the problem.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, will the Minister be good enough to give us an up-to-date report of the effect of sanctions on South Africa? I read in the national press that even Zimbabwe is having second thoughts.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, if the noble Lord recalls the recent election in South Africa, he will see that sanctions do not necessarily achieve the ends which so many ascribe to them.

§ Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran
My Lords, when the Minister replied to the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Gisborough, he said that he agreed with him. One of the statements made by the noble Lord was that there were a large number of people in South Africa who did not believe in one man one vote. Can the Minister amplify and give the evidence for his agreement with the noble Lord that there is a mass of people not wanting one man one vote in South Africa?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, perhaps I misunderstood my noble friend but I thought he said that he did not think that there was that particular concern there. I do not think it is useful to speculate further than to say that the Government—as indeed many of your Lordships—hold very sincerely to the principle that the best way to solve the problem in South Africa and to help is by promoting the kind of dialogue that we have regularly advocated from this Box and which we shall continue to encourage.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the noble Lord the Minister has said that the Government are vigilant in their opposition to apartheid. Can he tell the House whether one of the measures that the Government are taking to oppose apartheid has been to ask for the withdrawal of a South African military attache from London and, if so, why?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, on the question of the military attache, the position is that the South African Embassy notified us that the armed forces attache would be relinquishing his post on 17th July—a few days ago. They have also sought to nominate a successor and we shall be informing the Embassy that this is not acceptable.