§ 2.46 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they recognise the judicial system of Namibia as legitimate.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)My Lords, we do not give specific recognition to judicial systems in other countries.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that I am referring in this Question specifically to the trial of the eight political detainees which at the moment is suspended until February? Does she recall the letter that her honourable friend the Minister of State wrote in February of last year in which she included the sentence:
It is not our practice to intervene in Namibia or elsewhere during the course of judicial proceedings".The point that I should like the noble Baroness to elucidate is whether that constitutes a recognition by her Majesty's Government that the judicial proceedings taking place in Namibia are valid judicial proceedings and should be observed as such or whether they are in defiance of international law.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I make three points to the noble Lord in answer to that question. The question of recognition does not arise. As a matter of fact, a system of courts exists in Namibia as part of South Africa's administration of that territory. We do not recognise that South Africa has any right to continue to administer Namibia. I can confirm the point that my honourable friend Mrs. Chalker made. We do not intervene during the course of judicial proceedings in Namibia or elsewhere and that has been the policy of successive governments.
Lord Paget of NorthamptonMy Lords, does it matter in the least whether or not we recognise the judicial system of Namibia? Has that the smallest effect?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, in answer to the noble Lord, it is a matter of principle.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, is there any reason at all in these circumstances, when Her 479 Majesty's Government do not recognise the legal system set up in this territory, why Her Majesty's Government should not make representations to the Government of South Africa on this matter? Secondly, can the noble Baroness say what progress is being made in the implementation of Security Council Resolution 435 and what steps Her Majesty's Government are taking in that direction?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that we continually make clear our concern about human rights issues in Namibia to the South African authorities both privately and publicly, and we shall continue to follow the situation there closely. On the issue of Security Council Resolution 435, we are of course fully committed to this and we continue to support both the United States and the United Nations negotiations which are aimed at implementing that plan.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that her comments in reply to the first supplementary question of my noble friend Lord Hatch of Lusby are indeed to be welcomed? They were forthright and declared unequivocally that we in no way support the South African Government in their behaviour in Namibia and in particular in the judicial proceedings. However, all British Governments, although they may not intervene at the time of judicial proceedings, have never hesitated to condemn an outcome which they know has been rigged and fixed. This is probably an example of such an outcome, and I ask the noble Baroness whether she will consider that matter when these proceedings have been concluded.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, when proceedings have been concluded, that will be a separate matter.
§ Lord GisboroughMy Lords, can my noble friend assure me that the same standards which are used in criticism of human rights and legal legitimacy in South Africa are applied to other countries around the world which have the same problems and which are equally worthy of such criticism?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, yes. I can assure my noble friend that that is the case and that we have condemned violations of human rights wherever they may occur.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness how long the Government are prepared for the present situation in Namibia to continue? Can they not urge in the Security Council that a strong United Nations peacekeeping force should enter Namibia to take control of the situation.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, as I indicated in answering the question of the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, we have supported both the United States and the United Nations in working towards the full implementation of Security Council Resolution 435. However, I confirm to the noble Lord that it would be quite wrong to suggest that we have some unique responsibility for achieving Namibian independence.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, may I return to the reply of the noble Baroness to my first supplementary question? Does this not leave Her Majesty's Government in a somewhat ambiguous position? She says, as did her honourable friend the Minister of State, that it is not the practice of the British Government to intervene during the course of judicial proceedings. However, if the Government do not recognise those judicial proceedings, surely now is the time to protest about the so-called judicial proceedings that are being used against the eight detainees.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I understood the noble Lord's point the first time he made it. I have given him an answer as a matter of fact concerning what the situation is and has been under successive governments.