HL Deb 29 October 1986 vol 481 cc711-4

2.44 p.m.

Lord Renton

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they will take to ensure that local authorities, fire services, police forces, emergency planning teams and others with responsibility for protecting people from the effects of peacetime disasters, are fully prepared, equipped and trained to deal with radioactive fallout caused by power station accidents at home or abroad.

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, detailed plans exist for dealing with emergencies at civil nuclear power stations in this country. Regular exercises are held involving organisations concerned. Following the accident at Chernobyl, the Government are conducting a thorough review of contingency plans and procedures for nuclear incidents both in this country and overseas. We will ensure that all the implications are properly addressed.

Lord Renton

My Lords, may I thank my noble friend for that reply? May I ask him whether it means that the Government accept that there could be another Chernobyl-type disaster on the Continent which could badly affect London and other places in this country? Can he say when it is proposed to publish the report of the inquiries which he is holding?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, with regard to the results of the Government's inquiries, I cannot give the House a firm commitment on this. We are keen to make rapid progress, but I am sure that the House will realise that there is a great deal of work involved. It was only at the end of August that the Soviet Union provided full technical information about the accident to the International Atomic Energy Agency. I think it would be wrong for me to comment on my noble friend's question as to whether or not we thought there would be another Chernobyl.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, what machinery exists for liaising with the local authorities (other than sending out circulars) in order that they may be kept up to date with the necessary research and the necessary activity, from their own point of view, should such an incident occur?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, there are two aspects to that question. The first is, what would happen if there were an accident in this country. It is of course up to the operator of the plant to provide a suitable scheme to take account of any accident, and preferably of course to prevent the accident from happening. The nuclear industry in this country has a very good safety record on that front. With regard to an accident overseas, that is one of the matters that we are addressing in our work at the moment.

Lord Winstanley

My Lords, as one who lives in part of the Lake District which was exposed to the Chernobyl cloud at a time of very heavy rainfall, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that what we want to know is to whom we should apply for information about whether or not our water supplies or our land have become radidactive? My wife insists that our vegetables and fruit have been "Chernobyled". I cannot dispute that with her unless I have the necessary information. I asked the Ministry of Agriculture about this weeks ago and have heard nothing. I could ask my friends at Sellafield to do tests, but that would be hardly fair since they did not cause the cloud. Who should we ask?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, as I understand it, the noble Lord was right to write to the Ministry of Agriculture.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, will the noble Lord agree that human error is often an element in these accidents and it is the fact that human error is not confined to any particular part of the world that makes it impossible to say that such a disaster might not occur in this country? In the light of that, ought we not to view the development of further nuclear energy with very grave doubts?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, the noble Lord is rehearsing questions and arguments that are well known to the House. As he will of course be aware, the design defects at Chernobyl are not found in United Kingdom installations.

Lord Clifford of Chudleigh

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that some years ago when I was chairman of the Devon Emergency Volunteers (in which we were trained, inter alia, to do the things mentioned in the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Renton) we had a meeting to discuss what we had done to help the floods in Newton Abbot, and the local CND came and broke it up because we included in our training the points mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Renton? Would it not be a good idea to get over to the nuclear disarmers this thought: what we are trying to do to replace the old Civil Defence is to our mutual benefit and is not an argument for doing the things the CND have suggested?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I appreciate that there is a small body of people wishing to prevent us making progress on all aspects of civil defence. Indeed, we have been able to make considerable progress and that is in large measure due to the Bill which my noble friend Lord Renton piloted through the House earlier this Session.

Lord Mellish

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, said that he had written to the Ministry of Agriculture and had not received a reply. When is he likely to get one?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I shall consult my noble friend Lord Belstead. The letter may have been mislaid in the post, and no doubt the noble Lord would like to send a reminder.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl to go a bit further in relation to the question asked by my noble friend Lord Mishcon regarding foreign nuclear power stations? He will be aware that only 30 miles away in France, and in Gravelines in particular, there is a huge body of nuclear energy in nuclear power stations. Are there arrangements, with France in particular, that British authorities should be informed of any accident to those power stations which may affect this country and particularly the East Coast towns?

The Earl of Caithness

Yes, my Lords, there is a formal agreement between the United Kingdom and France to exchange information about emergencies in one country with radiological consequences for the other.

Lord Renton

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the protection of the people of this country depends upon co-operation in the arrangements made by the Home Office and by all local authorities, whatever their political complexion? Can he give us an undertaking that that is being brought to the notice of all local authorities?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I quite agree with my noble friend that it is up to all of us, including the local authorities, when it comes to matters of this importance. I assure the House that in July proposals were announced for a rolling three-year planned programme for implementation of civil defence regulations. That will set priorities and a timetable for systematic monitoring, providing a framework for more rapid and consistent progress. The programme will be issued to local authorities very shortly.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the reply that he gave to my original supplementary question, even though it was not a reply to the question I put. Will he kindly indicate to the House what organisation exists so that all local authorities join in the information that is available and in planning the necessary activity so far as they are concerned in order to deal with the matters raised in the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Renton? Does he deem the matter to be of sufficient importance for a proper Statement to be made in regard to these matters in this House?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, as I explained in my original Answer, detailed plans exist for dealing with emergencies at civil nuclear power stations in this country and regular exercises are held involving the organisations concerned. With regard to an accident that could happen abroad, we are looking at that possibility to see whether the information can be improved and whether liaison can perhaps be made better than it is at the moment. I take the noble Lord's point and we shall note what he says.

Lord Inglewood

My Lords, may I refer to my noble friend's point about co-operation? Are there now detailed plans between the French and British police?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, as I said, there is a formal agreement between the United Kingdom and France that covers all aspects, including the use of police as and when necessary.