HL Deb 29 October 1986 vol 481 cc709-11

2.39 p.m.

Lord Ardwick

My Lords, at the request of my noble friend Lord Molloy, and with the leave of the House, I should like to ask the Question standing in the name of my noble friend on the Order Paper.

The Question was follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether during the British presidency of the Council of the EC they will initiate discussions with all countries concerned on the question of acid rain.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Skelmersdale)

My Lords, proposals for tackling the problem of acid rain have been under discussion within the European Community for some time. No agreement has been reached because of the widely divergent views of different member states. As the Presidency, we hope to advance the discussions with a view to promoting agreement on a package of measures which would be generally acceptable to member states.

Lord Ardwick

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. Now that the Government admit the link between sulphur emissions and acid deposition, perhaps I may ask him whether they will bring forward their target for reduction in line with other European countries.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I assume that the noble Lord is referring to whether or not the United Kingdom should join the "Thirty per cent. Club". We recognise the importance of the club as a symbol of international concern about acid rain. However, being a member of the club does not necessarily mean that one is doing more than a non-member. The House will know that we reduced our sulphur dioxide emissions by 24 per cent. before the club's starting date, which was in 1980. We are now over 40 per cent. down on the peak levels of 1970. Therefore we have already done more than some members of the club which were still increasing their emissions during the 1970s. However, we are keeping the possibility of membership of the club under continuing review.

Viscount Hanworth

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that emissions of nitrous oxides from vehicles are probably as important as sulphur emissions from power stations; and, if he agrees, will he therefore ensure that this problem also is taken into account in any discussions?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I certainly agree with the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary question. That is why the Central Electricity Generating Board, for example is doing an enormous amount of research work into low nitrogen oxide-producing grates and other ways of heating water to make electricity.

Lord Grimond

My Lords, is it the opinion of the Government that alleged pollution by acid in Galloway is due to emissions from power stations? If so, which power stations; and, if not, to what do they attribute it?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, there has been a very long-term experiment in the lakes in Galloway. I understand it has been going on since about 1909; so we know that the water is becoming more and more acidified—in fact, by one degree on the scale over that period. It is certain from those experiments that this has been a long-term problem which has been building up and which started with the industrial revolution.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, is it not a fact, despite the progress that the Minister indicated in answer to a previous supplementary question, that we still have the reputation of being the biggest polluter in Europe in our production of acid rain? Can the Minister tell us when we can expect substantial progress towards eliminating acid rain entirely?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, we have a reputation which I believe to be somewhat undeserved. In fact, we produce 66 kilograms of sulphur per person per annum. That is 25 per cent. less than Spain and the United States and 15 per cent. less than Finland and Luxembourg. This is something which we have continued to reduce and it is our firm intention to carry on doing just that.

Lord Nugent of Guildford

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, apart from the fact that the generating board has been somewhat unfairly accused of adding seriously to acid rain by its emissions, the major factor is undoubtedly lead emissions from motor car exhausts? Therefore will not the Government's campaign—in fact, their programme—to reduce lead in petrol make a major contribution to reducing acid rain?

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. There is also the fact, which has nothing to do with the Government, that more and more people are now driving diesel cars, which of course are lead-free.

Viscount Hanworth

My Lords, would the noble Lord answer the previous question? He did not mention the Russian satellite countries, and my information is that they are using coal with 5 per cent. sulphur and that they are the major polluters in Europe, particularly in Germany where the forests are dying.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, again, I am very grateful to the noble Viscount. I did not add that a staggering 240 kilograms per person are emitted from East Germany every year.