§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have agreed with the United States Government that in emergency Her Majesty's Government will use powers known to the United States Government but not known to Parliament and whether these powers include the enforcement of military law, the conscription of labour and compulsory evacuation of homes.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I refer the noble Lord to my Written Answer on 8th May when I told him that there have been no such agreements with the United States Government. The content and introduction of any emergency powers would be for consideration by the Government and Parliament of the day, having regard to all the circumstances at the time.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, the noble Lord in his usual evasive manner says that there is no such agreement. However, is he aware that his colleague in another place has confirmed that there is such an arrangement and that an agreement is no less an 6 agreement when it is called an arrangement? Is he also aware that his office has a copy of three draft emergency Bills? Is he further aware that the ground areas provided in those Bills have been discussed with the United States authorities? Is he still further aware that regulations to be issued under those three Bills have been drafted, though the Bills themselves have not been placed before Parliament? Finally, is he aware that under those Bills 15 detailed plans have been drafted, yet none of these has come before Parliament and none of them has been confirmed by Parliament? Does he know that such an arrangement, whether he calls it an agreement or not, is an absolute disgrace?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the question on the Order Paper tabled by the noble Lord suggests that there has been some agreement with the United States Government to confer certain powers upon them under certain circumstances. I said then and I say now that there is no such agreement.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, is the Minister aware that in fact this Question is a lot of nonsense? Is he further aware that of course everybody knows that legislation has already been prepared in the event of an emergency arising and that it would be exactly the same as that which was produced when Winston Churchill was Prime Minister and supported by Ernest Bevin and Clem Attlee and others, when emergency powers were brought in to control manpower, and so on. That is what one expects any sensible government to do in a state of emergency. What is all this rubbish?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite correct. Any responsible government will want to consider the appropriate powers that they ought to take in times of great tension, crisis or war.
§ Lord KinnairdMy Lords, apart from the understanding that I thought we had in this House, that supplementary questions should be kept to one and not extend to two, three or four, can the Minister tell us how closely our debates and certain statements made in this House are read in Moscow?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I was once told that the Hansard of your Lordships' House received careful scrutiny in the Kremlin; but how true that is I cannot say.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, is the noble Lord the Minister aware that the noble Lord who has just spoken from this side of the House ought to be sitting on the other side of the House? Is he further aware that the agreements, though they are called arrangements, have been confirmed to be in existence by his colleague in another place and that it is entirely disgraceful that what his colleague calls an "arrangement" should be reached specifically with the United States forces without either House being informed of the matter?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I can only assure the noble Lord again that there is no agreement or arrangement to confer the sort of powers that are referred to in the noble Lord's Question upon the United States Government or any other government.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, is the Minister aware that the only reason I made my intervention was because I have nothing but admiration and pride for a man like Ernest Bevin who did what he did at the beginning of the war because he was a great patriot? I am sure that somebody would follow him and do exactly the same if an emergency arose. I am proud to have known that man, which is something I cannot say of some people I know.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, in the situation that has been referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Mellish, Great Britain stood alone against the Nazi forces. There was no United States agreement to come to our aid or help us nor was there any other nation involved. Can the Minister please tell the House whether it would be necessary for the United States Congress to give approval if such a situation were to arise and their forces had the powers that are mentioned in the Question asked by my noble friend Lord Jenkins of Putney? Can the noble Lord tell us, or will he at least find out for us, whether the United States Congress would agree to such action by their military forces in another nation's land?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, experience leads me to suppose that to anticipate the views of the United States Congress, or for that matter the British Parliament, in a hypothetical situation would be unwise. But on the earlier part of the noble Lord's observation, I am happy to feel that in any future conflict (which I hope will not occur) we shall have the support of the United States and our NATO allies.