HL Deb 25 July 1986 vol 479 cc490-2

11.16 a.m.

Lord Teviot

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question standing in my name on the Order Paper

The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made in the disposal programme for the National Bus Company.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State Department of Transport (The Earl of Caithness)

My Lords, the National Bus Company sold the first of its subsidiaries, National Holidays Limited, on 14th July and it is negotiating the sale of several others. The disposal programme is therefore now under way.

Lord Teviot

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Does he agree that it is disappointing that the management bid was unsuccessful? Does he further agree that had NBC been sold to management and staff, lock stock, and barrel, the Government may not have been left with a lot of unsaleable companies; it would not have affected competition; and in the long term the public would have benefited?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, the reason why this section of NBC was not sold to the management was that its offer was considerably below that which was accepted. As to the sale of the whole company, we do not believe that selling it as an entity would have been beneficial, and it would have frustrated our deregulation programme, which would not have been in the interests of potential passengers who are waiting for an improved service.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, does the noble Earl recall that what he has said is an echo of the reply that he gave me on 18th July? Whether NBC was disposed of wholly or in part, would not all subsidised services have to go out to tender in any case under the provisions of the Transport Act 1985? Also under the 1982 Act were there not powers to dispose of NBC and for the Secretary of State to direct that; and yet until now nothing has happened? Was the decision deferred because, until deregulation, the company was so successful as a national entity that until it was broken up other operators would have found themselves unable to take over services?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, the noble Lord should not be surprised if there is a consistent answer to a consistent question! We have been through the question of the disposal of NCB in considerable detail on the Transport Bill last year. He will recall our happy discussions on the matter. We believe that the action that we have taken is the best for competition and for the passenger.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, were not the discussions on the 1985 Bill on the disposal of the company generally and not about breaking it into 70 separate pieces?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, the 1982 Act to which the noble Lord referred did not provide for the disposal of all National Bus Company operations; the 1985 Act did.

Lord Ezra

My Lords, can the noble Earl give an assurance that when the time comes to dispose of the Victoria Coach Station, presently operated by the National Bus Company, full regard will be had to the need to reduce the undue accumulation of coach traffic in that part of London?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, the Government are fully conversant with the noble Lord's special interest in this matter. I shall ensure that his point is passed to my right honourable friend.

Lord Shepherd

My Lords, may I ask three brief questions: First, am I right in thinking that satisfactory agreement has now been reached between the Government and the trustees of the pension fund, and that all is now well? Secondly, can the noble Earl give an assurance that there is no question of stripping out the property assets from those bus companies? If the companies are to be sold to the employees it is necessary for the companies to have within them assets upon which the banks can make loans. Thirdly, with regard to the purchase of National Holidays Limited, was the price influenced by the fact that the company purchasing agreed to take over the staff and to guarantee their pensions?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, on the first point, about pensions, I am glad to tell the House that settlement has been reached on the vexed question of past pension entitlements. With regard to the noble Lord's second question, I cannot give the assurance that he wants. From his experience he will realise that there are some surplus properties that the NBC will dispose of separately. In general, the operational properties will be sold with its subsidiaries. With regard to whether the price was influenced by the offer to take on existing staff, a number of factors affected the price, but I can confirm that, as we understand it, all the staff will be taken on under roughly the same terms and conditions of employment that they were under before.

Lord Shepherd

My Lords, and their pensions?

The Earl of Caithness

And their pensions, my Lords.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, can the noble Earl give the House any information about the disposal of the engineering companies within the National Bus Company? Is he aware, as I have been informed, that about half of them have gone out of business or are in the process of going out of business? How would that affect the validity of the safety guarantees that we were promised during the passage of the 1985 Bill?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I regret that I cannot give the noble Lord any further information on that point as no disposal has taken place. However, I shall look into the matter now that he has raised it.