§ 3.18 p.m.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to raise the issue of chemical weapons with the Soviet Foreign Minister when he visits the United Kingdom on 14th July.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)My Lords, we hope to have a full exchange of views on a range of arms control issues, including chemical weapons.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, will my noble friend, with her right honourable and learned friend (and mine too) the Foreign Secretary, remind the Foreign Secretary of the Soviet Union that we unilaterally destroyed our stocks of chemical weapons at the end of the 1950s; that the United States ceased to produce 455 any more chemical weapons in 1969; and that this gesture of peaceful disarmament by both us and NATO has not been followed by the Soviet Union, which has continued to develop, produce and deploy chemical weapons so that 300,000 tonnes are now deployed? Is that not a very poor example of its spoken desire to follow a peaceful disarmament line?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I can confirm that we abandoned our chemical weapons in the late 1950s, and that the United States brought in a unilateral restraint since 1969 which has not been matched by the Soviet Union. I shall of course draw to my right honourable and learned friend's attention the point my noble friend makes so that it may be raised when this matter is discussed.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, while the record of the Government in this area has been a very good one, is it the case that Mr. Chevrov of the Soviet Government, who visited this country recently, said that good progress had been made towards a world-wide ban on chemical weapons? Can the noble Baroness say whether that is true and whether Her Majesty's Government agree with it? Secondly, can she say whether the Government have participated in the development of a new generation of binary weapons in this field?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, on the first point that the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, raises, we welcome the Soviet chemical weapon initiative of 22nd April in so far as it includes some points of detail; for instance, an offer to declare chemical weapon production sites within 30 days and the beginning of a dismantling within one year, as opposed to the usual generalities that we have had from the Soviet Union.
We have also welcomed the acceptance of international inspection to verify cessation of production. All the details will need negotiation. What remains (and we attach great importance to it) relates to verification; that is, inspection on challenge. On the other matter, the United States has now said that it will move to restore its deterrent capabilities in chemical weapons if there is no agreement on the banning of chemical weapons in the future.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, I am obliged to the noble Baroness. Will she deal with my point about our participation in the development of new weapons?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, there has been no change in government policy, and none is proposed.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, in the context of negotiations for an outright ban on chemical weapons, will the Government remind Mr. Shevardnadze of Mr. Gorbachev's dictum that verification makes weapons reductions possible in the context of disarmament? If verification makes reductions possible, it is only verification which will make abolition possible.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I shall draw the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, to the attention of my right honourable friend.
§ Viscount TrenchardMy Lords, does my noble friend agree that while it may be possible to know where chemical weapons are manufactured at present, they can be manufactured anywhere, and that it is extremely hard for any outside means of detection to reveal where?
§ Baroness YoungYes, my Lords; I agree with what my noble friend says. That is why we regard challenge inspection as very important.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, will the noble Baroness ask Her Majesty's Government to point out to the Soviet Foreign Minister that this country, under both Labour and Conservative Governments, has shown an exemplary example by having nothing to do with chemical weapons? At the same time, will she consider asking the Soviet Foreign Secretary, when he visits this country, whether he will take back representations from our Government on the withdrawal of foreign troops from Afghanistan and from those countries in the Middle East occupied by Israel?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I am happy to confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, what I said to the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn. There is no change in government policy with regard to chemical weapons, and none is proposed. NATO has no wish to see the United States resume the production of chemical weapons if a better option—a negotiated ban—can be achieved. I note his last point. I think that he will agree that it is wide of the Question.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, on the point raised by my noble friend Lord Cledwyn, does the noble Baroness agree that there have been hints and suggestions in recent weeks from several Soviet sources that agreement on this matter is not only possible but imminent? Can the noble Broness confirm that? Is the verification problem the main difficulty standing in the way of such an agreement?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, I set out as fully as I could the Government's position on the proposals made by the Soviet Union in April. I confirm again that the problem is challenge inspection.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, will my noble friend draw to the attention of the Soviet Government the admirable foreign affairs debate that we had in this House last Friday, and in particular the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, in which he drew attention to the amount of training that the Soviet Union is giving bright ANC members in violent acts of terrorism and the encouragement that it is giving to southern Africa in the troubles now going on there?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I think my noble friend will agree that the supplementary question is wide of the mark. I assure your Lordships that I have drawn the attention of my right honourable and honourable friends to the important debate that we had in your Lordships' House last Friday.