Intergovernmental Conference: Reports (Hansard, 30 January 1986)

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell)
My Lords, the British and Irish Governments have issued joint statements after each meeting describing the work of the conference. These are in the Library and available to your Lordships. The Government wish to be as open as possible about meetings of the Intergovernmental Conference, and to this end we intend to make such statements as a general practice.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Minister for that reply. I have looked at the documents to which he has referred and the fairly puny reports of very important meetings. Can the Minister consider to what extent he would agree with me that the most recent political developments in Northern Ireland are attributable to the near secrecy which has surrounded the Anglo-Irish Agreement since its inception? Can he tell us at what stage his right honourable friend the Secretary of State intends to come forward with a progress report that can be debated by both Houses of Parliament? To that extent, when can we expect fuller and more detailed reports of the meetings that take place so that we may come to reasoned judgments about progress or lack of it?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, any question as to debates will be a matter for the usual channels. I am sure that my noble friend will have taken on board the noble Lord's point. I am sure that the House and the noble Lord would accept that there are limits as to what could be made public in this particular field especially in one particular aspect that concerns the conference—that is, security. But I stress to the noble Lord and to your Lordships that we intend to be as 791 open as we can in these matters. The noble Lord will be aware that there have been three communiques and they are all available in your Lordships' Library. I am sure that he will glean a great deal of detail from these communiques.

§ Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge
My Lords, from these Benches we have strongly recommended that both agendas and reports of the meetings should be made available. Will the noble Lord pay attention to what the noble Lord, Lord Stallard, has said: that one of the ways that the distress of the Unionists, which seems to many of us to be unreasonable, can be somewhat eased is by a fuller report? Will he please give attention to that matter?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I can say yes to the noble Lord in answer to his third and second questions. To answer the noble Lord's first supplementary question, perhaps I may say that it has not been our practice—and I am sure that he will accept this—to release in advance the agenda for any of the three meetings of the conference. But the noble Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Stallard, will be aware that after the joint statement issued after the last meeting, it was made clear—and the noble Lord will see it in paragraph 4—that the next meeting would consider a progress report from the chief constable and the Garda Commissioner on enhancing security co-operation. I think that was one detail which the noble Lord would find both interesting and relevant.

§ Lord Fitt
My Lords, will the noble Lord accept that it is of the utmost importance that the fullest information should be given so as to allay some of the fears that now exist particularly in the majority community? Although he has said that the joint statements are issued, is he aware that following the three meetings that have already taken place there have been leaks and counter-leaks both from the Irish side and from the British side, each one of them more explosive and potentially more dangerous than anything we have seen in relation to the leaks concerning the Westland affair? Is he aware that this morning in a local newspaper in Belfast there is an alleged leak from the Intergovernmental Council saying that internment is to be introduced in Northern Ireland, that it is to be done on a selective basis and on a religious head count? Would the Minister not agree that the whole future of the Anglo-Irish Agreement lies in the fact that people are able to understand it—both the Unionists and the Nationalists in Northern Ireland—and if they are not able to understand it and not able to believe the Government, then both sides will bring it down?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, on the noble Lord's first question, of course we shall do our very best to see that statements are as full as possible. As to the leaks referred to by the noble Lord, the noble Lord and those who read the press in Northern Ireland are most interested to see what is fact, what is fiction and what is leaked. The noble Lord also asked what the Government would do as regards giving the fullest information to all sections of the community. Certainly we wish to be as informative as we can; but 792 the noble Lord, of all people, will appreciate that there are some areas where we have to tread very carefully, particularly in the area of security, and also in other areas like commercial confidentiality, for instance. However, we intend to be as open as we can in the circumstances.

§ Lord Prys-Davies
My Lords, we appreciate that reports and communiques are made available in the Library. We also appreciate that there may be areas where the Government would not wish to go public. Nevertheless, would the Government agree that an opportunity should be given to the House periodically to discuss the progress made by the conference, so that we do not have to rely on the debates on the appropriation orders?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord's comments will have been listened to with great interest by my noble friend and the usual channels. Should the noble Lord wish to put down a Motion. I hope that I shall be available to answer it.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, will the noble Lord appreciate that the intervention made by my noble friend Lord Fitt is in fact very profound and also very disturbing? It really cannot be dismissed on the basis that "confidentiality must ride above everything." For example, if what the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, says is right and there has been a suggestion in the press of internment, would not the noble Lord agree that this should be denied by the Government on the same day or on the following day? It should not be allowed to wait until some confidential report is issued, because the situation in Ireland is so delicate and so dangerous that I would have thought a little more was needed than the kinds of replies that we have just had.

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I believe I am aware of the report in, I think, the newspaper the noble Lord is referring to. So far as I am aware, this was a comment made by an individual. Certainly I do not think it is the duty of the Government to reply to every thought of every individual in Northern Ireland or elsewhere. Nevertheless, the Government listen to the views of your Lordships' House, and of course they listen very carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Fitt.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, would the Minister assure the House that nothing that has happened since the signing of the agreement, including the results of the recent by-elections, has in any way weakened the determination of the Government to maintain and strengthen the Anglo-Irish Agreement?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and I would certainly give him that assurance. We believe the agreement is of great importance and we would wish to do everything we can to strengthen it.

§ Lord Blease
My Lords, will the Minister accept that from this side of the House it will be appreciated that there is a considerable difference in what is stated between the reporting of security matters and consultations dealing with economic, social and cultural matters arising from the Anglo-Irish 793 Agreement? Would he not agree that the proposed procedural arrangements for the implementation of the Anglo-Irish Agreement now require the promotion by the Government of informed public awareness and interest, and that it should not be left to every Tom, Dick or Harry to form his own conclusions?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I am very grateful for the noble Lord's thoughts on economic, social and cultural arenas in Northern Ireland and indeed in Ireland as a whole. I have said, and I shall repeat, it is our wish to be as open as we can. But I have also stated to your Lordships that it is not our practice, nor is it the practice of the Irish Government, to release in advance the agenda for meetings of the conference. However, I shall certainly convey the noble Lord's comments to my right honourable friend, and see whether there is any further improvement that can be made in that field.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, can the Minister say whether the Anglo-Irish Agreement is intended to operate symmetrically? In other words, are Her Majesty's Government free to complain to the Government of the Irish Republic if it appears to them that certain laws, institutions and practices south of the Border are acting to the disadvantage of some groups or individuals in the Republic?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I am sure that the matters which will be raised at the conference will be discussed to the widest possible degree and that all matters of the type described by the noble Lord will be eligible for debate. I am sure that if they came to the notice of my right honourable friend, or of other participants, they would be discussed.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, would the noble Lord accept that his replies to the questions seem to make the situation worse? There have been questions here today from noble Lords who were seeking information, but there is not enough information available to Members of this House. The noble Lord himself recommended that we should read the Northern Ireland press. We do so avidly; and I am sure that he will also have read the recent very comprehensive survey which was carried out by the Belfast Telegraph, which proved that over half the people in Northern Ireland do not understand the Anglo-Irish Agreement. In my view, that lack of understanding can be counterproductive and, as the noble Lord, Lord Mellish, said, one cannot hide behind the security point for every evasive answer. Other things as well as security are being discussed. Why can we not have information about them?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, certainly the Government are not evading the giving of information and I have not sought to evade it this afternoon. I am very sorry that the noble Lord should think that; but I am sure he would accept that in matters of security—and that was just one of the many items which have been discussed at the conference—we should go very carefully. As I pointed out to the noble Lord, Lord Blease, in regard to economic, social and cultural matters and other matters which might be covered at the conference, we would wish to be as open as we can. Certainly I hope 794 that the information which has been given so tar is as comprehensive as this Government and the Irish Government would feel to be possible.

§ Lord Moyola
My Lords, would not my noble friend agree that the biggest problem as regards Northern Ireland at the moment concerns the rumours, lies, and so on, which are prevalent on all sides? In the light of that, would he say whether anything can be done to improve the Government's information service so that these lies and rumours are countered at the time?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for his comments on what is and what is not said in Northern Ireland. I shall certainly take his points on board and see whether there is anything we can do about it. I am sure that my right honourable friend will be most grateful for the points raised by my noble friend.