Nuclear Tests (Hansard, 15 April 1986)

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)
My Lords, the United Kingdom has carried out 39 nuclear tests. We do not have reliable figures for tests conducted by other countries. As noble Lords will be aware, we do not believe that current verification techniques are adequate reliably to detect and discriminate all nuclear explosions.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the American Government's own 541 figures show that they are well ahead of the Soviet Union in this matter? In these circumstances have not the Americans, by their persistence in nuclear testing in the face of both this situation and the Soviet decision to stop, become a major menace to the peace of the world? Is this not confirmed—

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
A major menace to the peace of the world, my Lords—and is this not confirmed by the action of the Americans in Libya, which our own Prime Minister has failed to condemn in contrast to the Prime Ministers of other European countries?

§ Baroness Young
No, my Lords, I do not accept what the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, has said. So far as the question of the moratorium proposed by Mr. Gorbachev is concerned, we believe that it was a declaratory gesture which is no substitute for effective and negotiated arms control measures.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that when nuclear weapons were owned by just a few powerful nations there was not perhaps so great a risk, but the really grave risk which now faces mankind is that so many other nations all over the globe are seeking to possess this detestable weapon? Therefore, will the Government give full support to examining any proposal for a test ban treaty?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I have made clear the British position on this matter on many occasions in this House.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, is it not a fact that so far as we as a nation are concerned we would be the first to agree to no more nuclear tests, no nuclear bombs of any kind, provided other nations would also agree? Is not what is holding it all up the whole question of verification? Is it not about time that some of those who have spent all their time criticising Britain and the United States of America turned their attention to other people who simply mouth slogans and will not agree to verification?

§ Baroness Young
Yes, my Lords, the noble Lord is quite right when he says that the key to this whole matter is the question of verification.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, have we not got to appreciate that the Soviet Union under Mr. Gorbachev have taken a brand new attitude? He has proposed—and this has received some sympathy from the United States—initiating a form of verification. Would the noble Baroness agree that this is a move in the right direction?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I indicated in reply to an earlier question that the moratorium that the Soviet Union declared is no substitute for effective and negotiated arms control measures.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, will the noble Baroness explain to those who have not followed these matters that the Americans no longer put forward the 542 excuse of non-verification? That is peculiar to the government of this country. The Americans now admit that verification is possible, and they have found other excuses for going on testing.

§ Baroness Young
No, my Lords; the position with regard to the United States Government is that we have welcomed President Reagan's statement that if he were able to agree on verification, he would be prepared to move forward on the ratification of both the threshold test ban treaty and the peaceful nuclear explosions treaty.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, supposing that my noble friend's suggestion were adopted everybody agreed to abolish all nuclear weapons, would that provide us with any kind of guarantee that Colonel Gaddafi would not make one?

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, can the noble Baroness from her knowledge confirm or deny whether one of the nuclear tests that have taken place during the proliferation of the past 10 years was carried out by the South African Government in the Indian Ocean in 1979?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I cannot comment on that, and it is in any event wide of the Question on the Order Paper.