Pacific Nuclear Free Zone (Hansard, 14 October 1985)

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)
My Lords, we have noted with considerable interest the conclusion of the Treaty of Raratonga by the countries of the South Pacific Forum, and are studying the text of the treaty and its draft protocols. It will be for individual governments to reach a view on the desirability of ratifying the treaty or acceding to the protocols.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. May I ask whether she agrees that this is an important and responsible contribution to the peace of the world? Would she confirm that over 250 nuclear devices have been detonated in the Pacific by the East and West since 1946, and that since 1974 some 61 underground tests have been detonated by France? Is the noble Baroness also aware that the United States is flying dummies from California, 4,200 miles away, to the largest atoll in the Pacific, Kwaj-Alein, and has exiled the population from that island and made it a slum in the Pacific?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the Government's general view on nuclear weapon free zones is that their establishment in certain parts of the world could contribute to regional security, to non-proliferation and to disarmament in general. I cannot comment on the point about the numbers of nuclear devices, but on French testing in the South Pacific the United Kingdom understand the reasons for the French tests, while at the same time we recognise the strong regional concerns about matters of nuclear testing.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, can the noble Baroness say whether this matter is likely to be on the agenda of the Commonwealth Conference in the Bahamas which starts on Wednesday? Can she tell us specifically—if the Prime Minister is approached by the Prime Ministers of New Zealand and Australia on this subject—whether Her Majesty's Government can say that they oppose the testing of nuclear weapons in the South Pacific, thousands of miles away from this country and from France? Furthermore, can she be clearer in relation to the pact to which she referred in her first Answer? As I understand it, Her Majesty's 340 Government are to be invited with four other governments to sign the protocol. Can she say whether we are proposing to sign the protocol or not?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, if not formally on the agenda for CHOGM, this is a matter that may be discussed in the margins of the meeting. As far as nuclear testing in the South Pacific is concerned, we believe that the best way to resolve the problem of testing is to work towards a total ban through the conference on disarmament at Geneva. I can confirm that we have not been formally asked to sign the ratification of the protocols.

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, can the Minister confirm, for the enlightenment of the noble Lord opposite, that the greatest nuclear presence in the Pacific Ocean is that of the Soviet Union, with 30 nuclear powered and nuclear firing submarines, with over 120 nuclear bombers and two major nuclear bases at Vladivostok and Cam Ranh? Can she for the benefit of the House give some estimate of what she thinks the chances are of getting the Soviet Union to dismantle all that presence in the interests of bringing the Pacific Ocean into line with the Greater London Council?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I am not in a position to confirm all the figures the noble Lord has given. I think he has strayed slightly beyond the terms of the Question, but I very much take the point he made in the second part of his question because I think it is a real issue. As I have indicated, we are still studying this matter.

§ Lord Gladwyn
My Lords, is it not a case that if we stop testing our own weapons in America there might be some chance of persuading the French to stop testing their weapons in Muroroa, but otherwise there is not a chance at all?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I have already given the Government's view on the French testing in the South Pacific.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, I believe the noble Baroness was asked whether the Prime Minister, if she were invited by the Prime Ministers of Australia and New Zealand to do so, would agree to back this idea and that the Minister answered that the best way to stop testing everywhere was a general test ban. The Prime Minister is also to have a meeting with NATO Prime Ministers and Presidents and the President of the United States. Will she with the help of the other European Prime Ministers at that meeting urge the President of the United States to resume the negotiations, which the United States broke off, on a general test ban?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, this House will have a good opportunity to debate the whole question of a comprehensive test ban treaty as the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, has an Unstarred Question on this matter down for next week.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that her supplementary answer to the Question of my noble friend Lord Brockway was an 341 important and encouraging one? Will she explain to the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, that the boundaries of the Soviet Union brush on the Pacific Ocean and those of the Greater London Council do not? In these circumstances, as we seem to be making a little progress on this topic, will the noble Baroness go further in answer to the question from over here and indicate that the Government not only are in favour of what is happening in the Pacific but would themselves like to join in?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the position of the Government is that we have only just officially received the text of the treaty but not the protocols from the South Pacific Forum. It will be for the forum to decide how and when to approach the nuclear weapon states on the question of ratification. The answer to the original Question, to which the noble Lord referred, is that we believe that the establishment of nuclear weapon free zones in certain parts of the world could contribute to regional security, but this is a view conditioned by nuclear weapons not already being a feature of the security of the region and all states concerned being prepared to participate on the basis of agreements freely entered into and in keeping with internationally recognised principles.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, will the noble Baroness take another question from me? I appreciate her answers. Is she aware that, in addition to the demolition of beautiful islands largely beyond repair, the effects of radio active elements are continuing; that in the Marshall Islands babies have been born so deformed that they are hardly human; and that 96 per cent. of those who were 12 when the American test took place are now suffering from thyroid tumours? Is it any wonder that the areas concerned should be asking for a cessation of these detonations?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, yes. I have made clear that we understand the strong regional concern about nuclear testing and the Government's view on the best way of dealing with this matter.