HL Deb 14 October 1985 vol 467 cc337-9
Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to adjust the arrangements for controlling the consumption of alcohol in relation to football matches in England and Wales in the light of recent developments and of experience over a longer period in Scotland.

The Minister of State for Defence (Lord Trefgarne)

My Lords, the Government do not exclude the possibility of making some amendments to the Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol Etc) Act 1985 in the public order legislation which we hope to bring forward shortly.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Are the Government broadly satisfied that their intentions in the recent legislation for England and Wales are being carried out, in view of reports that various loopholes have been found enabling alcohol to be consumed at matches?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, we would not accept that the loophole which has been described in some parts of the press and elsewhere actually exists. The particular provision to which the reports have referred was one which was deliberately included in the legislation to provide the necessary element of flexibility.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister indicate to the House the type of matters that would be covered by the public order Bill that he mentioned? Would he also tell the House how he thinks, from the data given to him, that the present Act is operating in doing what we hoped that it would?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, so far as concerns the present Act the noble Lord will be aware that the football season has only just begun and it is really too early to draw any final conclusions on the matter, although we are encouraged by the certain limited evidence that we have so far. With regard to the content of the legislation which is to come forward in due course, that is still being considered carefully and in detail and clearly I cannot anticipate that consideration.

Lord Inglewood

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that last July this House was given far too little time to get through the proper duties of a revising Chamber? There were all the pressures to complete the different stages of that Bill by August. It is likely that we are going to have problems one after the other, in the light of practice.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I do not think I agree that the House was not given sufficient time, although I recognise that the Bill was taken through fairly swiftly; but it was necessary to get the Bill on the statute book in time for the season which has just begun.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, I do not want to press the noble Lord the Minister unreasonably; but could he indicate, as I asked him to, the kind of matters which are under consideration for inclusion in the public order Bill? One does not anticipate of course that the noble Lord the Minister would tell us what the decisions were, but may I ask what is under consideration?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord, as he understands, any detailed description of what the Bill will contain, but clearly some of the shortcomings to which people have pointed in the Act which is the subject of this Question will need to be considered as to whether they should be corrected by this Bill.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is it possible for the noble Lord to put the proposition to the Minister for Sport that it might be worthwhile contacting the officials of both the Rugby Union and the Rugby League to ask them for their advice on why in both sorts of rugby football we never get this kind of appalling behaviour?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I dare say that the noble Lord is as well able to draw conclusions on the matters that he puts to me as I am. However, there is no present intention to extend the legislation to those other sports.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the earlier legislation in Scotland of about five years ago has, on the whole, proved to be effective?

Lord Trefgarne

Yes, my Lords, I am aware that there is considerable satisfaction about the effect of the legislation in Scotland, but they have the benefit of a different legal system.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, is the Minister aware that noble Lords involved in debating the Bill when it was passing through this Chamber in July are grateful to him for reinforcing the Government's undertakings given at that time that the workings of the new Act would be kept under review with a view to possible amendment in the public order Bill? Is he also aware that we are grateful that he has taken to task some of the media for the irresponsible way in which they reported the fact that football clubs were applying for licences to sell alcohol under the provisions of the Bill as deliberately intended, and that no loopholes were found because that was not the ball game anyway?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for those observations. His intervention underlines what I said earlier, that the provision in the Bill for the granting of certain exemptions by magistrates was designed to provide an important element of flexibility, and so far we have nothing on which to disagree with that conclusion.

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