HL Deb 27 June 1985 vol 465 cc829-31
Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government, further to their Answer to the Baroness Burton of Coventry on 25th April (col. 1213), what is the present position of those nationalised industry consumer councils which had not, at that date, completed discussions with their respective industries on the original draft guidelines and the letter dated 22nd February sent to them by the Department of Trade and Industry.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Lucas of Chilworth)

My Lords, discussions between the National Gas Consumers' Council and the British Gas Corporation have been completed and the council is about to adopt the guidelines; the Post Office Users' National Council has begun discussions with the Post Office and I understand that these are proceeding well. The Central Transport Consultative Committee and the London Regional Passengers' Committee are well advanced in the joint internal considerations in preparation for discussions with the operators. Discussions on the guidelines for the Scottish electricity councils are continuing.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I looked at my files this morning and saw that I had a Question down on these guidelines on 23rd October 1983. Does the Minister not agree that is rather a long time ago? Can he tell the House now,.at last, what action the Government propose to take? May I ask him also whether he realises the considerable concern which is felt not only about the present position of consumer councils in nationalised industries but about what is to happen to them when those nationalised industries are privatised? Who will speak for the consumer then? The noble Lord mentioned the gas consumers. Can he tell the House whether the National Gas Consumers' Council will continue when gas has been privatised, or will some other organisation take over?

Lord Lucas of Chilworth

My Lords, 1983 is a long time ago to have put down a Question. I think that my noble friends and I have answered Questions fairly regularly, and we have now arrived at a situation where three of the consumer councils have agreed their guidelines. There are, as it were, only two to go; and I do not think it is unreasonable in such a complex matter that these discussions should take that length of time. The guidelines will act as a framework for any of the councils, not only until privatisation but also for the councils themselves in respect of any nationalised industry which is subsequently privatised. There will always be room for consumers.

Baroness Elliot of Harwood

My Lords, in view of the great interest that these matters arouse in thousands of consumers and in view of the fact that my noble friend has said that three of the consumer councils have more or less agreed their guidelines, would it not be a good idea for us to have a debate here so that the public would realise what has been happening? There are many people who really have no idea of what is going to happen when, for instance, the privatisation of gas takes place. I would ask my noble friend whether a debate could possibly be arranged fairly soon.

Lord Lucas of Chilworth

My Lords, I understand the concern my noble friend expresses. I have said in answer to an earlier supplementary that the councils would regard their present guidelines as a useful reference point for their contribution to discussion of any regulatory arrangements, particularly for the gas industry, after privatisation. As regards a debate on the consumer councils, I am sure my noble friend will recognise that that is a matter for the usual channels and not for me.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that before the privatisation Bills are formulated in respect of those industries which for some obscure reason the Government wish to privatise, it would be better to have a debate on the whole question of the consumer councils in the industries affected? Is the noble Lord aware that we had some difficulties during the passage of the British Telecom Bill, where the position of the consumer councils was not made clear until well after the Bill had been published and debated?

Lord Lucas of Chilworth

My Lords, I think I can only reply to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, in the same way in which I replied to my noble friend. If any of your Lordships wish to have a debate on consumer councils at any particular time, it is open to noble Lords to make representations through the usual channels.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, did my hopes mislead me or did the Minister give a guarantee that the consumer councils would be continued after privatisation? Is he aware that I have had a Motion on the Order Paper for two years, at the top of the list, and we still have not achieved a debate?

Lord Lucas of Chilworth

My lords, I certainly had no wish to mislead the noble Baroness. I am quite sure I gave no guarantee at all; nor am I able to do so. I would repeat that the National Gas Consumers' Council itself regards its guidelines as a useful reference point for its contribution to discussion of any regulatory arrangements. As I have said, there will be room for consumer representation. On the noble Baroness's latter point, I can only repeat that a debate, even at the top of the list, is not a matter for me.

Lord Harmar-Nicholls

My Lords, is not the whole burden of the excellent campaign of the noble Baroness: who will speak for the consumers? Is it not rather more important to ask: who will listen? Is it not the experience of all of us that private enterprise is more able to listen and act than are the nationalised industries?

Lord Lucas of Chilworth

My Lords, I think that is somewhat debatable. I am quite confident that the nationalised industries do in fact listen and respond to their consumer council representations.

Baroness Macleod of Borve

My Lords, as the Minister has said that guidelines have been sent out to the National Gas Consumers' Council, would it be possible to have a copy of those guidelines put in the Library so that those of us who are interested may see them?

Lord Lucas of Chilworth

My Lords, the guidelines are available from the councils directly, and if noble Lords make representations to the council they will then be able to obtain their own individual copy.

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