European Court Jurisdiction (Hansard, 27 June 1985)

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Glenarthur)
My Lords, the United Kingdom has signed and ratified the European Convention on Human Rights and has accepted the compulsory jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights. The judgments of the court have not, however, called into question the validity of sentences imposed under United Kingdom law.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. I wonder whether he would amplify it a little and say, not only that the judgments have not called in question the sentences imposed by the English courts but that in law they have no power to do so?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, as I understand it, they do not have the power to do so, but whether they could call into question any particular sentence is hypothetical and depends on the application made in any case.

§ Lord Denning
My Lords, may I ask that the jurisdiction of the European Commission and the European Court of Human Rights be looked at once again? The European Convention on Human Rights is no part of our law. It has not been passed by Parliament and it is not in any statute. It is contained 832 only in a treaty. I do not think the treaty-making powers of this country can give away the sovereignty of the courts in this land. I should like to tell your Lordships—

Noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord Denning
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the jurisdiction of the European Commission and the European Court of Human Rights is limited? Is he aware that it does not have unlimited jurisdiction over our laws and our people? Is he aware also that the European Commission is proposing to suggest that some of the sentences of the Court of Appeal in England are invalid?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I note the concern of the noble and learned Lord, but we are signatories to the convention. We are also leaders in human rights.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister agree—and I shall try to put this briefly—that where the United Kingdom signs a convention its word and signature constitute its bond? Would the noble Lord the Minister also agree that it is impossible at Question Time to deal with such general propositions of law as the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, attempted to put to your Lordships? Would it not be simpler to say that where the convention is in dispute we will obviously argue our case before the European Court of Human Rights but that as signatories to the convention we respect that court?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I certainly agree with the noble Lord that we respect the court. I agree with him that it is not perhaps an appropriate moment to discuss it in detail.

§ Lord Gladwyn
My Lords, would the Government at any rate make it abundantly clear on all suitable occasions that the European Court of Human Rights has nothing whatever to do with the European Economic Community?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord is right.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is my noble friend aware, notwithstanding the question put to him by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, that he has proved himself perfectly capable of giving a clear answer to a clear question, and that the House is grateful to him for that?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that only one of the many judges of the European Court of Human Rights is from the United Kingdom? Will he bear in mind that when we signed this convention it may not have been foreseen that the court would place itself in the position of dictating to the British Parliament ways in which it should change our law, and that there have been several examples lately of somewhat controversial results by way of changes in our law being proposed?

§ Lord Glenarthur
Again, my Lords, I do not really think that I can go much further. The question of the number of judges is not a matter for me; but I note the concern of my noble friend.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, is it not a fact that the European Court of Human Rights has already achieved considerable improvements in the conditions of life for prisoners in British prisons—for example, in the field of correspondence?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, there are many things that the court does which some would say were to the advantage of people. I am not prepared to comment on any particular case.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister and all your Lordships agree that the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, and the noble Lord, Lord Renton, are much better dealt with by a debate, if they wish to have one, by arrangment through the usual channels?

§ The Lord President of the Council (Viscount Whitelaw)
My Lords, had the noble Lord not raised that point himself, I was on the point of feeling that the House as a whole was beginning to think that that was the position that it would wish to get into in the future.