HL Deb 18 June 1985 vol 465 cc130-3

2.52 p.m.

Lord Davies of Leek

My Lords, I beg lea to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to take steps to reverse the run-down of the merchant fleet, in view of the concern of the Council of British Shipping about the continued reduction in the number of ships carrying the United Kingdom flag and the existence of some 40,000 seafarers needing employment.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, most of the factors that have led to the recent reduction in the United Kingdom merchant fleet are outside the control of either the industry or the Government. Nevertheless, we are doing a great deal to create conditions internationally which will ensure opportunities for our merchant fleet and thus favour the retention of vessels by United Kingdom shipowners, preferably under the United Kingdom flag. The key element is the implementation of an EC shipping policy which will enable our owners to compete on equal terms with companies inside and outside the Community.

Lord Davies of Leek

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that hopeful reply. There is no party political point in this because our shipping problem is of concern to all of us. In the 1984 Budget the Government said that they would rectify some of the burdens on the shipping industry and on seafarers at the next Budget. The word they used was "rectify". Will that be done? The centre of gravity of the shipbuilding industry today is in the Far East. For instance, I have seen it in Korea. However, our seafarers and the shipping industry need some consideration from our Government.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, in the Budget this year we did extend the depreciation of writing-down allowances on new ships to that of second-hand ships. It was extended this year.

Lord Grimond

My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether there has been an increase in the amount of new tonnage ordered, sailing under the British flag? Can he also say when the committee which the Government, I understand, have set up to investigate the effects of the decline of our shipping is likely to report?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, the committee to which the noble Lord, Lord Grimond, refers is probably the sea group study, to which I referred in answer to his question in February. It was to look particularly into the defence needs of our shipping. Those reports have been received by the department and are being carefully considered at the moment in conjunction with the Ministry of Defence. We are looking at them most carefully.

Lord Shackleton

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we are now confronted really with a national tragedy in this matter? It affects our defence, and our influence throughout the world. Will he urge his right honourable friends to approach this with real anxiety?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, we are obviously concerned. It is, however, important to say that it is not the same situation across the whole sector of the fleet. The sharpest decline of all has been in oil tankers which account for nearly 60 per cent. of the fall in tonnage. The reasons are fairly obvious to us in this country. The second sharpest fall has occurred, I believe, in dry bulk cargo ships. Again, it is a very competitive world market. As far as passenger liners, container ships and ferries are concerned, those sectors are doing really quite well at the moment.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, can the noble Lord give the House an assurance that the Government will pay very serious attention to the considerable questions raised by flags of convenience which are proving a considerable disability not only to those British shipowners still proud enough to fly the British flag but also to seafarers themselves?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, indeed we are aware of United Kingdom owners "flagging out". We want to see ships operating profitably under the British flag. But we cannot force our operators to operate at a loss. I would also point out to the noble Lord that some 40 per cent. of our own tonnage is ultimately beneficially owned abroad and therefore "flagged in".

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, does the noble Lord recall that I asked a similar question some 10 days ago? Today I received a written answer from the noble Lord, for which I thank him. Does he realise that the answer he has given me shows an appalling degree of complacency on the part of the Government? It misses out many essential points including, for instance, the ageing of ships in the British mercantile marine. In view of the fact that when I asked the question there was wide-ranging concern on all sides of the House for what is a tremendous economic loss as well as a loss in pride to this country, will he reconsider the phrase that he used in his letter to me that the Government see no need for further investigation? Will he press for a full all-party investigation either by a Select Committee or by a Royal Commission on what is, as I repeat from the words of my previous question, an appalling national disaster?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I would say to the noble Lord, as he has received my letter, that preceding the remark that we see no need for further investigation is the fact that we are only too well aware of the decline and the reasons for it. I have tried to explain to your Lordships some of the reasons why there has been a decline not only in our shipping but in shipping throughout the whole of the Western world.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, is it not a fact that the Merchant Navy was very hard put to supply the capacity and to provide the logistics for the limited campaign in the Falkland Islands? What would be the situation, God forbid, if we were called upon to supply the logistics for a bigger conflagration than that? Would we have the capacity within our Merchant Navy to carry out that function? Most people, I believe, take the view that we have not.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, the role that the fleet plays in support of defence forces in civil supply in times of emergency is well recognised. It is subject to continuous planning and review. In addition, as a member of NATO, we are pledged to pool our resources in the event of a war affecting the alliance. The main defence requirement is not for a fleet of a given size but for specific types of vessels. If necessary, we can deal with shortages by particular, not direct, action. I would say to the noble Lord that this is the subject of the studies that we have been undertaking.

The Earl of Lauderdale

My Lords, will my noble friend not agree that although there has been little comment from this side of the House, this is a subject that causes great concern all over the House irrespective of party? Would he not agree that it is the kind of subject on which this House is eminently suited to set up a Select Committee, as it has done on other subjects of general interest? Will he ask his colleagues in Government to have another serious look at this and perhaps discuss it with his noble friend the Leader of the House?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I shall certainly take careful note of what my noble friend says.

Lord Annan

My Lords, is there any country in Europe other than our own that does not subsidise its Merchant Navy?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I am afraid that I shall have to find out the answer to that and write to the noble Lord.