Swindon Railway Engineering Works (Hansard, 5 June 1985)

§ Lord Davies of Leek
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government made no such decision. Decisions on the future of railway engineering works such as those at Swindon are a matter for the British Railways Board and their subsidiary, British Rail Engineering Limited, who have put a proposal for closure to their trade unions. As I explained to your Lordship's House on 16th May, British Rail and BREL have concluded that workshop capacity must be reduced to match the fall in repair and maintenance workload which is resulting from British Rails' investment in new rolling stock.

§ Lord Davies of Leek
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Minister for that attentive Answer. The purpose of this exploratory Question was to ask whether any effort had been made to use all this engineering know-how in Swindon for overseas 744 exports in the railway industry. Was any exploration made to find further jobs abroad for any of these people, who have such great skill in engineering in connection with the railways?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, it is hoped that some of the people at Swindon will be able to go to other British Rail engineering workshops. Indeed, it is hoped that with an efficient British Rail Engineering Limited they will be able to secure valuable export orders.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, did I understand the noble Lord the Minister to reply to my noble friend to the effect that the Government do not intervene because it is not the Government's business, it is a matter for the Railways Board? If that is so, surely we cannot leave the matter of providing equipment for the railways of this country—railways being associated with the need for communication, and communication being one of our first priorities—to the decision of the Railways Board? Surely this is a matter in which the Government must intervene and declare a national policy?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I did indeed say that the closure of these particular works was a matter for the British Railways Board. However, the Government are obviously keen that British Rail Engineering Limited should make itself as efficient as possible. To do so, unfortunately it needs to rationalise its operation. As I think I said on 16th May, when I made the Statement, it is fortunately through the large investment being made by British Rail that the equipment used is becoming so much more efficient that it needs a good deal less maintenance.

§ Lord Parry
My Lords, could the Minister tell the House whether, in circumstances such as these, when our heavy industrial base is shrinking and when decisions have to be taken for internal reasons by a board, the Government then monitor the changes in the community and have discussions with community leaders as to how the blow can be absorbed?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, in this case at Swindon, British Rail Engineering Limited has set up a company called Swindon Holdings to develop the site and to assist with alternative employment. It initially made a contribution of three-quarters of a million pounds, which will probably have to be raised to one-and-a-quarter million pounds.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that these workshops are not the only railway workshops which have been closed? Is he aware that the closure of the Shildon Workshops in County Durham has caused enormous hardship in an area which already has the highest unemployment rate in Great Britain? Will the noble Lords say why we cannot compete for railway work in other parts of the world?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, we can and will compete for railway work in other parts of the world, but the only way we can do it is by rationalising the operation, making it more efficient and, therefore, competitive.

§ Lord Diamond
My Lords, will the Minister help me in relation to something I cannot understand about current Conservative policy? Will he explain why he always equates the rationalisation of operations with the need to cut labour rather than with the need to increase production? If you have more production you use more labour. As this falling off of orders could have been foreseen many months, perhaps years, ago (I do not know, but it did not arise suddenly), could the Minister tell us what steps were taken by British Rail to seek different kinds of work, not necessarily merely export orders, in order to make use of the enormous skills of the people concerned, and of the plant?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, Swindon is a repair workshop and, as I said, the amount of repair needed now is very much less than it was. A new diesel multiple unit train requires 40 to 50 per cent. less maintenance than a train of the old stock, and you need only two of them for three of the old ones. Therefore, the overall reduction in work is something in the region of 50 to 60 per cent. In addition to that, other factors, including major refurbishment progammes and the stripping of asbestos from older vehicles, are now coming to an end.

§ Lord Ross of Marnock
My Lords, did I understand the noble Lord the Minister to say to my noble friend that the men displaced at Swindon might be able to get jobs elsewhere with British Rail? Will he advise them where to go? Could he tell me where those jobs are? Certainly no advice to that effect has been given to the men who have been decimated at the last British Rail workshops in Glasgow, at Springburn. Where will they find jobs with British Rail?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I merely repeat what I said in the Statement on 16th May, that British Rail and Britsh Rail Engineering Limited will do all that they can to find alternative work for redundant employees by offering them opportunities to transfer to other works and by encouraging business development and job creation at both Swindon and Glasgow.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, could my noble friend tell me when the rules were altered, if I am right? I understood that, under the nationalisation legislation brought in by the party opposite, Parliament and the Government were in no way responsible for the day-to-day running of those industries. Indeed, one was not supposed to ask Questions—they would not be allowed in another place—because the Act itself did not allow it. I am all for the exchange of as much information as possible, but are we now saying that the Government can be charged in respect of actions which are the full and entire responsibility of the Railways Board? How do these questions and answers suddenly become allowable when it seems to be contrary to the original Act?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I thank my noble friend. He is more familiar with the original Act than I am. I have merely tried to do my best to answer the questions. Perhaps I should not have done that. As I said in my original Answer, it was not a decision made by the Government.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, in view of the Government's well-known history in a number of fields of intervention in the affairs of public boards that are ultimately responsible to the Government, could the noble Lord say whether he has had any consultations with British Rail about the subject matter of this Question? And could he say what advice the Government gave to British Rail on this matter in view of the very considerable social implications of the action taken?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the British Railways Board indeed gave my right honourable friend the Secretary of State advance notice of these proposals. As I have said, they are a matter for the British Railways Board, and not for the Government. The Government put no pressure one way or the other on the board in regard to the decision.

§ Lord Somers
My Lords, is there not a danger that "rationalising" is becoming a convenient euphemism for cutting down and doing away with?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I hoped that I had explained that through increased investment in British Rail the consequences are that the equipment had become more efficient and more effective and therefore needs less maintenance.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that the fundamental fallacy underlying the views of the party on the other side is that there is no difficulty in the Government arranging as much employment as they wish, and no difficulty in making as many goods as they wish, but it is quite impossible to get those goods sold if they are not at the right price?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right.

§ Baroness Fisher of Rednal
My Lords, would the noble Lord visit Euston Station occasionally? Announcments are made daily that owing to difficulties with the appliances a certain train will be delayed one hour, or will be delayed an hour and a half. My personal experience travelling from Birmingham to Euston over the last month is that five delays have taken place which have made the journey over three hours long, and every explanation has been something to do with the engine or that the brakes have been faulty, or that something else has. Is the Minister saying that he is running down British Rail?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, certainly not. At the risk of repeating what I said in quoting the Statement on 16th May, this Government have a record second to none as regards investment in the railways.

§ Lord Davies of Leek
My Lords, as well as thanking the Minister for his attention, may I ask him finally whether, in view of the interest of all of us on all sides of the House, any further exploration will possibly be made in relation to these people who are employed in the depots concerned, prior to the closing down?) Will exploration still go on to try to find work for these people?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, British Rail Engineering Ltd. are trying to find work for them by having set up this company to which I referred, Swindon Holdings.

§ Baroness Sharples
My Lords, can my noble friend say how many small businesses it is anticipated may be helped on the site that will be available when the Swindon works are closed?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I cannot say how many, but one very much hopes that the site will be a popular one. Swindon is in a growth area and many small businesses could prosper there.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware, in spite of what some of his noble friends have said, that where the actions of public undertakings are of profound public importance it has always been possible in either House to raise such matters? Is the noble Lord aware that they have always been raised both by noble Lords and by honourable Members in another place?
Secondly, in view of the implications of what he has said and the obvious changes that are taking place in the organisation of British Rail, which are not known to noble Lords in the House, would he now consider speaking to his right honourable friend and asking him to publish a White Paper which will set out precisely what is taking place in British Rail Engineering Ltd. and in other areas? That would ensure that the facts are made known to this country, which 100 years ago led the world in railway engineering but which today is lagging, as it is in so many other areas, and that not only both Houses of Parliament but the Britsh public as well have the information.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, since the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has asked a question on the way business is conducted in this House and in another place, I think that perhaps I should answer that question. I quote from the Companion to the Standing Orders: The tabling of Questions on nationalised industries is considered undesirable save for those asking for statistical information on a national basis or raising matters of urgent public importance". I think I should say in all fairness, especially to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, that this matter was raised in a Government Statement and I think that in the circumstances the noble Lord was quite in order in putting this Question on the Order Paper.