§ 3.8 p.m.
§ Viscount HanworthMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the likely developments in the economic viability particularly of small-size wave generators and the lead Britain had in this field, they will allocate more funds for research and development.
§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Gray of Contin)My Lords, it is unlikely that wave energy generators, except possibly on a very small scale, such as navigation buoys for example, will be cost-effective in the United Kingdom, and it is appropriate to round off our research in this field, although of course we shall be receptive to any realistic new ideas which could lead to major cost reductions.
§ Viscount HanworthMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, which has been much more encouraging than I imagined it would be. May I ask him whether he is aware that there is a wave generator which is being constructed in Norway on, I gather, the lines of our own research and that the Japanese are following on? Does he not think that perhaps it is a pity that our thinking about wave generation has always been in too ambitious terms, and that there is a great advantage in keeping in being a small research team which can quickly take advantage of any breakthrough that may come? Finally, does the noble Lord agree that we can never quite tell what will be useful because we do not know what will be the price of competitive energy in the years to come?
§ Lord Gray of ContinYes, my Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount for drawing my attention to that. I was in fact aware of the Norwegian project to which he referred; but I am bound to say that we are rather sceptical of the figures produced by the Norwegians with regard to that. We think that they are rather over-optimistic. However, I can assure the noble Viscount that we would certainly not set aside any new ideas if they were seen to be genuinely cost-effective.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, can my noble friend say whether the researches so far conducted in Norway and elsewhere have reconciled the problems of something light enough to operate in summer water and waves, and strong enough to stand up to winter water and waves, to say nothing of the problem of storage?
§ Lord Gray of ContinNo, my Lords. I am afraid that I cannot give my noble friend an exact answer to that. What I can tell him, as I said a little earlier, is that we are not satisfied that the figures at present being projected by the Norwegians are realistic.
§ Viscount Montgomery of AlameinMy Lords, can my noble friend say something about wind power? There is almost an equal and perhaps a greater field for endeavour in power generation from wind sources. Is this receiving equal attention?
§ Lord Gray of ContinYes, my Lords. I can confirm to my noble friend that we are very interested in a number of projects concerning wind energy. Indeed, my figures tell me that we can expect, post the year 2000, that for large production turbines there will be a cost per kilowatt hour of something between 2.5p and 3.2p, which is a competitive price.
§ Lord John-MackieMy Lords, the noble Lord suggested that he would be receptive to new ideas. Does not current research cover new ideas as well?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, I am not aware that the research about which we are talking today is under particular threat. But of course research, and what transpires from research, must always ensure that the funds available are directed to where they are likely to produce the best results. That is why we are discontinuing our major research in the area about which the Question was asked.
§ Lord EzraMy Lords, in view of the fact that it is necessary for this country, as a primary producer and user, to be permanently looking at new sources of energy, is the noble Lord satisfied that we are allocating sufficient resources to those ends?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, yes. Over the past five years the Government have invested in excess of £68 million on alternative sources of energy, and of course about £12 million of that investment was on wave power. That investment was not wasted because we learned a great deal from it; but the conclusion is that the money can now be better spent developing other alternative sources.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, will my noble friend not agree that common to both wind and wave generation is the problem of storage when the wind dies down or when the waves calm?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, my noble friend is correct. That principle would also apply of course to solar heat generation.
§ Lord ReaMy Lords, does the noble Lord consider that the Atomic Energy Authority establishment at Harwell is the best agent through which to channel research funding and the evaluation of renewable energy projects? Would not the Science and Engineering Research Council be a more appropriate body, considering the possible competing nature of renewable energy and atomic energy? I am sure that the noble Lord has read the report which comes from the energy technology support unit of the Department of Energy—
§ Lord ReaMy Lords, has the noble Lord read this report which comes from the Atomic Energy Authority?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, if I judge the mood of the House correctly, I think that the noble Lord is perhaps straying a little from the Question. If I may return to wave power, I would advise him that the 858 wave energy decisions have been taken by us as a result of the information that we have had and the guidance we have received from the energy technology support unit. I do not think that I should allow myself to be diverted on this point.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in spite of his doubts about the Norwegian figures, they claim to be producing energy from wave power at less than 5p per unit? Is it not conceivable and is it not possible that in Orkney, Shetland and the West of Ireland we could be producing energy from wave power at less than 5p a unit? Will the noble Lord look at this?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, perhaps I may reiterate that we have been doing so. While we can certainly produce energy from wind power at the figure that the noble Lord suggests, we are extremely sceptical as to the future of wave power. But as I indicated earlier, we certainly would not cast aside any new ideas which showed a reasonable prospect of being cost-effective.