HL Deb 18 July 1985 vol 466 cc858-60

3.16 p.m.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will study as a method of compensating individuals for any losses they may incur which they are unable to recover through legal action in cases where the defendants have diplomatic immunity, the method used in the United States of America of requiring embassies to carry insurance policies for this purpose.

Baroness Young

No, my Lords. I understand that the United States Foreign Missions Amendment Act 1983, which the noble Viscount must have in mind, covers only vehicle insurance. In the United Kingdom the position is as described in the Answer I gave to the noble Viscount on 24th June. We would normally request the transfer of any diplomat found to be driving without third-party insurance.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness that if we did start on this road we ought to start very gently and in a narrow field, as the Americans are, with their very limited Act. Nevertheless, they now have some years of experience. Should we now not be asking them how well they have done in the course of these years of experience, particularly at this moment when we have so many very eminent American lawyers present with us?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I have given the Government's view of the value of this piece of American legislation in British circumstances, but the noble Viscount must understand that should a diplomat be found not to have carried third-party insurance and to be involved in an accident, we would normally request the transfer of such a diplomat. If there were damage and the mission or the diplomat refused to pay, I understand that the victim could expect compensation from the Motor Insurers' Bureau.

Lord Denning

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the head of a mission can always waive the benefit of diplomatic immunity on behalf of the agents of the mission? In these circumstances, would it not be reasonable to ask the head of a mission to waive diplomatic immunity in respect of any claims that can be covered by insurance, not only motor vehicle claims but property claims and the like? Would it not be wise in advance to ask the head of a mission to give such an assurance?

Baroness Young

Yes, my Lords, I think I can assure the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, that it would frequently be the case that, if there was a matter in which a diplomat had committed a criminal offence and the police would have preferred charges had the person not been a diplomat, there would be an opportunity for the police to report the matter to the Home Office, which in turn would report to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office which would raise it with the head of the mission. It is then possible for the Government sending the diplomat to give a waiver of diplomatic immunity, and the matter can then be brought before the court.

Lord Denning

My Lords, I am sorry to press this matter further but I was not referring to criminal cases. I was referring to civil claims for damages in our civil courts.

Baroness Young

Yes, my Lords, this too is perfectly possible. Diplomatic immunity can be waived by the Government of the country sending the diplomat to this country.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, can the noble Baroness say whether the embassies have co-operated in this matter of waiving diplomatic immunity? Have any countries said that they will be prepared to waive diplomatic immunity in the case of parking offences, to which the earlier Question referred? If I may return to the subject of the White Paper, is the noble Baroness aware that it refers to the need for a stricter code of practice under the Vienna Convention? Can the Minister say whether such a code is being produced by the department?

Baroness Young

My Lords, there are many cases where diplomatic immunity is waived. Indeed, it may in effect be waived by the diplomat himself, who may go before the court and not indicate that he is a diplomat with immunity to waive. It is perfectly possible that such might be done.

In answer to the noble Lord's second point, we are following up the White Paper, which we believe has been helpful in clarifying the position over parking offences and other matters which concern diplomats.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, does the Minister of State's first Answer imply that the United States does not like expelling diplomats and so diplomats there need an insurance scheme, whereas we do not mind expelling diplomats and so they do not need an insurance scheme?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I could not possibly comment on what the United States might or might not like in these circumstances. I simply stated what the law is. So far as the United Kingdom is concerned, nobody can like such a circumstance as asking a diplomat to leave. It is a question of whether or not it is the right thing to do.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, do we make arrangements for reciprocity concerning the granting of diplomatic immunity in respect of our own diplomats? Having asked that first question, is it not the case that our record is pretty good in that field?

Baroness Young

My Lords, as the noble and learned Lord has rightly said, the Vienna Convention applies to diplomats all over the world. Whatever ruling we may wish to apply here, we must recognise that it may be applied also to our diplomats in whatever country they are serving. So far as motor vehicle insurance is concerned, we of course insist on third-party cover.

Lord Airedale

My Lords, supposing that in a civil case diplomatic immunity is not waived, could not consideration be given to compensating the person concerned out of public funds, provided he can satisfy the appropriate tribunal that but for the diplomatic immunity he would have a valid claim?

Baroness Young

My Lords, that point was raised earlier in the Question of the noble Viscount, Lord St. Davids. The position is as I have given in my original Answer to that Question. We believe that it would be impossible for officials or a special tribunal to determine the facts of any case without compulsory powers to obtain documentary or written evidence.

Where the facts are clear there is no difficulty in applying political pressure, such as the threat of withdrawal of a diplomat who is found to have committed an offence. The difficult cases are those where the facts or law are in dispute. We could not award compensation simply on the basis of the claimant's version of the case. Furthermore, the existence of the right to compensation could encourage diplomats to flout their obligations, and claimants to inflate or invent claims against diplomats.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, can the noble Baroness give the House any indication of who should be expelled or what should be done in the matter of a cargo of American strategic oil bought commercially abroad and shipped on a normal merchant vessel which is subject to a salvage claim at this moment, and where the American Government is apparently claiming diplomatic immunity?

Baroness Young

Not without notice, my Lords.