HL Deb 17 July 1985 vol 466 cc740-2

2.58 p.m.

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they propose to take regarding the video entitled "Policing London", produced at public expense, and now being distributed through schools and other bodies in London.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Glenarthur)

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has already condemned this disgraceful film on several occasions. It is a blatant attempt to discredit the metropolitan police for political purposes. We shall continue to take every opportunity to put the record straight.

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. May I ask him whether he agrees that there is something particularly objectionable in making crude political propaganda of this kind available and injecting it into the curriculum of a number of schools in London? Does he not agree that there is something particularly wrong and particularly undesirable about making a film with the almost deliberate intention of worsening relations between children and the police and between the ethnic minorities and the police?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord. It is quite deplorable that this film should be shown in schools, and it is particularly despicable that many of those who would deny the police access to local schools have no qualms about subjecting children to this sort of pernicious propaganda for their own ends.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, so that there is no doubt whatsoever as to the view of this House in regard to the police—I am not in any way commenting on any film which in fact I have not seen—may it be clearly on the record that we on these Benches have every admiration for the police force and think they do a magnificent job?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I am very grateful for those remarks of the noble Lord.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, does the ILEA not have some responsibility for allowing the circulation of this film in the schools under its control? Is my noble friend aware of any action being taken by the ILEA to stop that happening?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, the GLC would do well to withdraw the film if it wishes to be regarded as a serious commentator on peace affairs and to rescue any vestige of reputation it might want to retain on this matter.

Lord Allen of Abbeydale

My Lords, taking up a point which the Minister himself made, can he confirm that it is true that in some schools where the film itself is welcome the police are not welcome, and that they are not allowed in even to give advice and help about road traffic safety or, perhaps more importantly, about drugs? Is that not potentially harmful to the children themselves?

Lord Glenarthur

Yes, my Lords; the noble Lord is quite right. In Hackney in particular, a branch of the National Union of Teachers has voted to decline to allow police to enter classrooms of schools. That is deplorable, and I note that the GLC has not attempted to dissuade those concerned.

Lord Renton

My Lords, bearing in mind that the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, states that the film was made at public expense, can my noble friend say whether that is so? If it be so, will any attempt be made to hold those who made it responsible and to refund the money to the public?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, it is a disgrace that ratepayers' money should be used to produce propaganda of this kind. The question of expenditure by local authorities for overt political campaigning is one of the matters being considered by the Widdicombe Inquiry into local government practices and procedures. That inquiry was established by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment earlier this year. We await its report with interest.

Lord Grimond

My Lords, is it not time that the whole question of propaganda paid for out of public funds, either instigated by or connived at by a public authority, was examined, not only by the Widdicombe Inquiry but in general, and some code of conduct established?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I certainly believe it is important that this matter should be looked into, and that is what the Widdicombe Inquiry is doing.

Lord Annan

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether the Secretary of State for Education has any powers in this matter? One might have expected him to intervene on this occasion. It is important that the Department of Education should clear itself of the charge of being wilfully "wet".

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, it is certainly the case that Her Majesty's inspectors would see this sort of propaganda. If they do so, they would comment adversely on that fact in their reports. The responsibility would then be on the education authority—in this case, the ILEA—to take corrective action. The reports of Her Majesty's Inspectors are published, and an authority would be very unwise to risk outraging public opinion further by failing to put its house in order.

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Minister for his remarks this afternoon. Perhaps I may ask him, in the light of the very helpful comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, whether he does not agree that it would be particularly admirable if the leader of the Labour Party now asked the ILEA to withdraw the film in question?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, that would be very nice to see, and I hope that he will.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, would we not all be best advised not to play politics with this matter?

Noble Lords

Oh!