HL Deb 31 January 1985 vol 459 cc742-3

3.15 p.m.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether consideration has been given to the responses of the London Regional Passengers' Committee and the Metropolitan Counties Joint Public Transport User Groups, to the White Paper Buses (Cmnd. 9300).

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, these have been considered, along with other responses to the White Paper and the subsequent consultation documents, in the preparation of the forthcoming Transport Bill. I understand notice was given yesterday for the introduction of the Bill in another place later today.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, is it fully appreciated that the London Regional Passengers' Committee is a statutory body set up by the Government, that the joint users' committee, covering the six metropolitan counties, embraces something around 200 local user groups, and that both these bodies were highly critical of the Government's proposals in the White Paper and called for withdrawal of the legislation? Does the Minister's reply mean that the Government have taken no notice at all of these proposals and that the legislation will cover the actual proposals in the White Paper?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I have seen the reports of both the LRPC and the metropolitan counties. As I said in my original reply, consideration was given to all the responses, not only those but everybody else's. I am afraid that the noble Lord will have to wait to see the Bill to know the details.

Lord Gisborough

My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the great deal of misleading propaganda which has been spread about in certain parts of the country against this Bill? Can he say how much money any particular counties have spent—in particular, Lancashire, where rumour has it they have spent over £100,000? Can he say whether it is legal to spend ratepayers' money on propaganda as opposed to information?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I believe that Lancashire have been among the highest spenders and have spent something like £133,000 on what we would consider to be scaremongering propaganda against the provisions of this Bill. I believe it is legal for them to do so. However, they must in the end be answerable to their ratepayers for the expenditure of the money.

Lord Graham of Edmonton

My Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that there is a great deal of difference between consultation and actually implementing the views of consumers? Is the Minister aware that my noble friend on the Front Bench has quite properly shown the deep concerns not of politicians but of consultative committees, the users, the consumers? Can the Minister assure us that there will be marked differences between the White Paper and the Bill when it appears, taking into account the views of those very important people?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I am afraid that I certainly cannot give any assurances that there will be marked differences between the Bill and the White Paper. On the subject of consumers, I suggest that the noble Lord ask the consumers in the Hereford area who have benefited from the trial area down there. He will find out what they think about it.

Lord Teviot

My Lords, I should like to ask my noble friend whether it is not true that this Bill is going to be produced within an hour? I should rather like to forget about Hereford. Will he confirm to me that within an hour we shall all be able to sit down and look at any proposals and form our own opinion?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, as I said in my original Answer, I understand that the Bill is to be read a first time in another place later this afernoon. Then of course everybody can give consideration to the Bill, both in another place, and later here.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I am somewhat surprised that he replied in the way he did to his noble friend's supplementary question? I have the two documents here. Is he aware that to suggest there is any propaganda in these documents is just nonsense? These are serious submissions by user bodies. I wish the noble Lord had made that quite clear in reply to his noble friend.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, my noble friend's question was in regard to money being spent by county councils—not the bodies to which the noble Lord referred in relation to propaganda against these proposals. It did not refer to the submissions put by the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, in his Question.

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