Unemployment and Health (Hansard, 21 January 1985)

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Glenarthur)
No, my Lords. Little of the research so far carried out on this subject has been conclusive. The Government's priority is to tackle the problem of unemployment at its roots.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister will forgive me if I just express my very great sadness that Lord Balogh will no longer appear in this House. We had been great friends for the past 30 years, and I am sure that all noble Lords will regret that his pungent contributions to debate will no longer be heard.

Noble Lords
Hear, hear!

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the survey done on this subject by Professor John Fox and his colleagues at the Social Statistics Research Unit? Admittedly, this was done on figures of 1981, when unemployment was 4 per cent. rather than over 13 per cent., as it is today. But it finds that, suicides, accidents and respiratory diseases contribute particularly to the men's deaths and that, unemployment leads to premature death for men and reveals for the first time that their wives, too, are vulnerable. Is the Minister also aware that his own Government have said very much the same in the report on social trends by the Central Statistical Office, which finds evidence of higher levels of divorce, alcoholism and reported illnesses among those who had lost their jobs between 1979 and 1983? While I fully admit that there is no conclusive evidence, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will agree that these findings warrant a Government investigation of the effects of unemployment on this very large percentage of our workforce?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, before answering the points which the noble Lord raised, I, too, should like to be associated with what he said about the late Lord Balogh and to express sympathy from where I stand for his family. But in answer to the points that the noble Lord raised, yes, we are aware of the research which has been carried out by Professor Fox, but what the noble Lord adduces from that is not really the case. The researchers themselves say no more than that, The results from this study support findings by others that unemployment is associated with adverse effects on health". They do not claim that their work proves conclusively that premature death is directly attributable to unemployment. The reason research has not been conclusive is that it has proved difficult to isolate the effects of unemployment from those of all the other factors that affect health. So far as further research is concerned, we are always willing to consider further bids, but they have to be of demonstrable usefulness.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, will the noble Lord accept that his reply is very disappointing and will he think again about this? Is he aware that the researches that have been published by a number of institutions show that, so far as the long-term unemployed are concerned, there is a 20 per cent. increase in suicides; that by the age of 2 most children of the long-term unemployed are an inch shorter than those of employed families; and that there is a substantial increase in mental and physical illness, as well as a very serious increase in family breakdowns? Will he not consider that a major overall survey is essential, if he is not satisfied by the research that has already been published?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, as I indicated in my earlier answer, we do not accept that existing research has generally been conclusive, as the noble Lord himself seems to think it is. We are already pursuing policies which provide the best way of reducing unemployment long-term. Equally the record quite clearly demonstrates the priority which the 6 Government attach to meeting the health needs of the population as a whole, whatever the causes of ill-health might be.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his smooth answer to my noble friend is simply not acceptable? Is he further aware that unemployment imposes tremendous mental strain, not only on the displaced wage earner, but on his wife and family as well? I have experience in this connection and so I know what I am talking about. It is therefore essential, as the Government are longwinded in any attempts to solve the unemployment problem, for them to do something about it.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I have already indicated that we firmly believe that what we are doing to remove the underlying causes of unemployment is the right way of tackling the problem. There are various statistics which I could produce to the noble Lord which would show that this country is doing better than many others. The fact is that the soundness of the methodology being used in some of these surveys is also under some challenge by other researchers in this field. That is the reason for the answer which I gave earlier to the noble Lord.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that it is always very easy to criticise the basis of research in the social field? I have been involved in this and nothing is easier than to shoot down the validity of one's opponents in the research field. While it is possible to do this, surely the noble Lord would agree that commonsense, which I should have thought would appeal to him perhaps rather more than would research findings, suggests that the long-term unemployed are bound to be suffering in this way and that special measures are needed to deal with the consequences.

§ Lord Glenarthur
Yes, my Lords, but it was certainly not my intention or anybody else's to shoot down out of hand the research that has been done. One pays tribute to those who carry out the research. The noble Baroness talks about commonsense in this respect. It is commonsense also, I suggest, that in some individual cases unemployment does contribute to ill health through stress and through low income; and in others ill health is itself a factor in job losses. But generalising from particular cases has proved very difficult, and I am sure that the noble Baroness will realise that it is likely to remain so.

§ Lord Somers
My Lords, does the noble Lord include in the word "unemployment" all those who are not working; in other words, those who are on strike, who certainly cause a great deal of hardship to others from time to time?

§ Lord Glenarthur
Yes, my Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord is right in that respect.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware of the work of Dr. Brenner on the association between suicide and unemployment? If not, will the noble Lord's department study it?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am aware of that work and it is its methodology which has been challenged to some extent by other researchers in that field.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, the researches to which I referred were done not in the United States, but in this country. Is the Minister aware that it was not I who cast doubt on their validity, but he himself? If he does not accept the validity of the researches done in university research departments, would it not be sensible for him to institute precisely the proposal made by my noble friend?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, we monitor what is going on, and I have said that if we are to produce any further surveys, they must be of demonstrable usefulness.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, if the noble Lord is so convinced that his Government's policies are undermining unemployment and after five years he finds that unemployment has steadily gone on rising and is still rising, how long will it be before he is convinced that his policies are wrong? May I ask him whether he recalls that I did not suggest that any of the research that had been done has been proven, or that the social workers who have done that work assert that their work is conclusive? What I asked him was this: In view of the work that has been done, particularly by the social research department, and in view of the article published in the Lancet, is it not the responsibility of the Government to institute their own inquiry into what is clearly a growing malaise among a large section of our population?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, for the third time I can say only that we are willing to consider bids for research on their merits, but that there must be some point in carrying out the research.