Nuclear Disarmament: Verification (Hansard, 21 January 1985)

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, we attach great importance to the adequate verification of arms control agreements. Verification methods must be determined by the requirements of specific agreements and by the parties to the negotiations. It would be hard for a summit conference to address such technical issues.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I am very pleased to hear that the Government are willing to search hard for a solution to this problem? But is he also aware that a summit conference on this 8 matter is possible? Indeed, in the past three or four days something like it has been said by President Reagan and his chief negotiator, Mr. Kampelman. In view of SAMOS I and SAMOS II, which can see a Russian soldier loading his rifle anywhere in the Soviet Union, and in view of all this wonderful, multi-spectral photography, they now believe there is a possibility of arriving at some form of agreement on verification. Could it not be that, between the Soviet Union, on the one hand, and the United States of America, on the other, Great Britain has an opportunity to perform a remarkable role in bringing together the two sides and other interested bodies to try to save mankind?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I think one ought to resist the temptation to imagine that there is some simple panacea to these problems which could produce a simple, straightforward solution overnight. As President Reagan said recently: Absolute verification is impossible, but adequate verification is essential". I think that the technical methods to which the noble Lord referred underline the point that I made earlier: that this is really a matter for technicians and scientists and not for leaders.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in last Wednesday's very useful debate initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, several of your Lordships mentioned that conventional disarmament is just as necessary and important as nuclear disarmament? Will he bear in mind that, if and when that happens, verification with regard to it will also be necessary?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, my noble friend is of course quite right. That is why we attach such importance to the MBFR talks, as they are called, which are presently going on in Vienna.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this question? Are we not attaching too much importance to this idea of verification? Is it not a matter of interpretation: in other words, who is telling the truth about time, space and measurement, and all the rest of it? Why, every now and again, do we pick out some idea in order to solve a problem when in fact there is no problem and therefore can be no solution?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I think the difficulty is that the history of these matters is littered with occasions when we have had to be disappointed, to put it no higher, with the actions of the other side as related to their assurances. For that reason, I am convinced that verification is a crucial part of whatever arms control agreements we can reach; and that is why we support the search for effective measures in that area.

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that there are some aspects of verification which will continue to require on-site inspection—for instance, chemical weapons and chemical stocks, which none of the new technology is capable of detecting?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I think my noble friend underlines what I said just now: that there are no magic solutions to this problem. I think my noble friend is also right about the particular point which he has raised.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, since the Minister, in quoting President Reagan, agreed that there can be no complete verification but only adequate verification, is the position of the Government that there may be some agreements which are acceptable even though they in fact involve an element of trust?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I cannot think, off-the-cuff, of an agreement that we would find acceptable which incorporated no measures of verification, but there may be occasions when we have to settle for less than 100 per cent.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, will the noble Lord agree that while nuclear verification is now technically possible nothing can replace the will for peace? Will he try to ensure that the will for peace is fully present in the USA, as I believe it to be in the USSR?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I wish that I had the faith of the noble Lord in these matters, but I do not believe any useful purpose would be served by arms control agreements which one side or another can flout at their will.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, as the noble Lord, Lord Renton, has said, conventional arms must equally come under some kind of control?
But there is the most amazing difference between conventional arms and thermonuclear weapons; the latter are on the verge of interfering with the secrets of the universe. The firing of a conventional shell has never created any danger such as that. Is the Minister further aware that eminent American scientists have indicated to their President that he ought to initiate graduated and reciprocal initiatives to reduce tension? There might be some difficulty for the American President in doing that, or even for the Chairman of the Soviet Republic. What I believe is that here—

Noble Lords
Speech!

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I believe sometimes—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I am sure that the Minister acknowledges and is aware of the importance of this subject and recognises that it demands reasonable examination. I believe that Great Britain—

Noble Lords
No!

§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, will the noble Lord put his remarks in an interrogative form?

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. Is the Minister aware that I hope he will be 10 prepared to recognise that this proposition could be accepted? Is he further aware that there have been indications—certainly in the United States—that it might be well worth our while?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, if I can grasp the essence of the noble Lord's supplementary question, I certainly agree that we ought to be seeking balanced and verifiable methods of arms control. The Government will do everything they can to achieve that end.