Employment of Children Act 1973: Implementation (Hansard, 25 February 1985)

§ Baroness David
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Glenarthur)
My Lords, local authority associations were consulted in 1975 and 1977 on the implementation of the Employment of Children Act 1973. It was concluded that, because of the resource implications for local authorities, the introduction of the Act's provisions could not be justified. It is still considered to be inappropriate to impose these further responsibilities on local authorities. However, my right honourable friend will continue to keep the matter under review.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Minister for that reply. May I ask him whether he is aware that the recent Low Pay Unit Open University survey entitled Working Children shows that 83 per cent. of the children covered in the survey were working illegally; that is, in illegal jobs, illegal hours or under the statutory age of 13? Are the Government satisfied with that state of affairs?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, along with his colleagues, my right honourable friend will be considering the report to which the noble Baroness refers. I hope that education authorities will also consider whether they are acting as effectively as they could within available resources. My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment has asked the Health and Safety Commission to assess the implications of the Low Pay Unit report on aspects of their responsibility also.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, to follow up the Question put by my noble friend on the Front Bench, may I ask the Minister whether there is any evidence to show that the employment of children outside this Act—in other words, illegally—is affecting the job prospects of children who are leaving school? There appears to be evidence to support this suggestion. If that is the case, will the noble Lord ask his honourable friend in another place to look at the situation as a matter of urgency?

§ Lord Glenarthur
No, my Lords, I do not think the facts support the suggestion which the noble Lord makes. In fact, I have the figures for the number of 808 prosecutions and convictions in the years 1979 to 1983, which are not all that great. I can certainly let the noble Lord have a copy of that.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I am sorry to come back on this matter, but may I make the point that the number of cases where this is going on is not being monitored because of the the lack of inspectors, and that kind of thing?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, yes, but there is no evidence to support what the noble Lord says. However, I shall bear in mind his remarks.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is very difficult for both employers and for parents to know what the law is because local authorities have so many different by-laws on this subject? Would he please draw the attention of his right honourable friends to the need to have a general set of regulations which can be understood by everybody throughout the whole country?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, at present all authorities except the Isles of Scilly, I gather, have by-laws, and most, but not quite all, follow the lines of a circular, of which the noble Baroness will be aware, which was issued in 1976. Regulations would mean all authorities coming into line with the standard requirements, although most but not all are in line now. There would be resource consequences for those whose present requirements are different.

§ Baroness Lockwood
My Lords, is the Minister of the opinion that the kind of work that these children are doing is suitable for children of their age? For example, is he aware that the survey to which my noble friend referred indicated that something over 30 per cent. of the children had had accidents at work? Further, did the noble Lord see the recent television programme which showed children working at Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge, doing the kind of work that I think many of us would think is unsuitable for children?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, so far as the accident rate is concerned, the Health and Safety Executive have estimated, from the information available to them, that there were approximately 125 accidents to children at work in legal employment in 1982, but some 500 other accidents were reported to the Health and Safety Executive incorrectly because the children were not at work when the accidents occurred. So far as Addenbrooke's Hospital is concerned, I understand that in this case the local education authority have made inquiries into the allegations. When Office Cleaning Services—that is to say, the contractors—read the report that they were employing children illegally, they took immediate action.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, do the facts disclosed in these exchanges not point to the need for immediate and urgent action in this field? Is not this picture of children being injured at work and of being employed at hours of work which are illegal, with a somewhat (if I may say so) casual reaction from the Government, most unsatisfactory?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I can certainly assure the noble and learned Lord that there is no intention of a casual reaction by the Government. However, as I have said, most of the authorities concerned have already introduced their guidelines, which were more or less the same as, or were identical to, those which were suggested in the 1973 Act. Of course we are concerned about children being illegally employed. We are well aware of the allegations made in the report to which the noble Baroness referred. It is always a matter of concern if laws to protect the welfare of children are not being properly observed. However, it is, of course, the duty of employers to obey the law; and the primary responsibility for the welfare of children rests with their parents.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, is it not perhaps a little encouraging to learn that not even the law can restrain 83 per cent. of the children's enthusiasm for work?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I agree that one can put some quite encouraging interpretations upon what has been reported in the report. Nevertheless, not everyone necessarily feels that the figures are correct.