Bibles and VAT (Hansard, 5 February 1985)

The Earl of Selkirk
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Arts (The Earl of Gowrie)
My Lords, the Government have received numerous representations about the possibility of VAT on books. Many of these have been from Churches and individuals concerned about the possible treatment of Bibles and religious literature. The Government are well seized of the arguments. But I am afraid that, at this time of the year, I am bound to respond to my noble friend's Question with nothing more helpful than the traditional sentence: "I cannot anticipate the Budget Statement of my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer".

The Earl of Selkirk
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his Answer, which supports strongly the rumours which are going round at the present time. May I ask him whether the Chancellor realises that the Bible Societies are handling something of the order of 4 million Bibles a year, either in whole or in part, and that half of those probably go abroad to 150 foreign countries, in about 1,700 different languages? Would he not acknowledge that the force of this book has had a considerable influence on the civilisation of the world, such as it is, and particularly on the basis of human relations?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, the importance of books on religion in particular and books generally is recognised in commercial, educational, and religious terms.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, would the noble Earl the Minister prevail upon his right honourable friend to desist from considering imposing VAT on newsprint where it could have catastrophic consequences not least for local newspapers with the prospect of 7,000 jobs and more than 100 weekly newspapers going to the wall?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I am not sure if that is a question. If it is a question, it is certainly another question.

The Lord Bishop of Norwich
My Lords, would the Minister be willing to say whether he draws a distinction, as it is such a finely drawn question, between the Bible and other literature? In the light of the fact that the Churches' Main Committee, which represents all the Christian Churches, has made such a strong representation about the Bible, is the noble Earl encouraged by the fact that the whole of the Bench opposite will know that it was Gladstone who spoke of the Bible as the "impregnable rock of Holy Scripture"? Does he realise that he has used the phrase "this time of year"? Does he mean Lent, and therefore the Government being willing to abstain?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, "by this time of year" I mean that Lenten season when Ministers are under penitential requirements not to make comments about possible Budget statements. On the substantive supplementary question asked me by the right reverend Prelate, it would be wrong for me to comment on any possibility of tax distinction when the whole issue is hypothetical.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords—

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords—

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, I do not mind being in conflict with the opposite side of the House, but I do object to being in conflict with my own leader. Would the noble Earl agree that the extension of value added tax in any sense and in respect of the Bible would not only have a regressive effect on religion but also a regressive effect on taxation generally?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I congratulate both noble Lords opposite on vying with each other to be numbered among the saints, but I have nothing to add to what I said earlier.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, surely in a lay state which caters for a vast variety of religions it is utterly wrong in principle to give a tax preference to one as against the other?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, it might be wrong in principle if this were proposed.

§ Lord Maude of Stratford-upon-Avon
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that all this fuss and a great deal of other fuss, and a lot of correspondence to Members of Parliament and noble Lords from various individuals and organisations, could have been saved if the Treasury, or whoever, would stop leaking rumours about a forthcoming Budget for months beforehand?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, my noble friend, who is well versed in the ways of Government and Treasury, should, I think most respectfully, know very well that the Treasury has not been doing any such thing.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, may I be allowed to speak not as Leader of the Opposition but as a Nonconformist, and to say to the noble Earl that there would be grave resentment and disquiet throughout this country—England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland—if the Government even began to contemplate value added tax on the Bible?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition is a distinguished Nonconformist, but at this time of the year I have to conform to parliamentary convention.