HL Deb 05 February 1985 vol 459 cc935-7

2.44 p.m.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the application of United Kingdom law to United States servicemen in the United Kingdom.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)

My Lords, United States servicemen in this country have to obey the law of the United Kingdom. Jurisdiction is determined by the terms of the Visiting Forces Act 1952. It lies with the courts of the United Kingdom in all circumstances except where an act which is an offence under United States law is not an offence under United Kingdom law or where the act is an offence under the laws of both countries and either arises out of and in the course of duty or is committed solely against persons or property associated with the visiting force. In those cases jurisdiction lies with the authorities of the United States forces unless they choose not to exercise it.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, first, may I express my appreciation of the attitude of the noble Viscount the Leader of the House and the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, in refusing to associate themselves with the attempt to silence my similar Question last week? Secondly, is the noble Lord aware that his noble friend Lord Trefgarne told me previously, on a previous Question, that the American servicemen were under the same law as British servicemen? How is his reply or that of the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, to be equated with the case in St. Mawgan in Cornwall, in July 1979, when an American marine killed a British youth of 17? The inquest was then stopped under the Visiting Force Act, the marine subsequently being admonished by an American court-martial and fined 1 dollar.

The Lord President of the Council (Viscount Whitelaw)

My Lords, perhaps my noble friend will wish to reply to that, but I think I really should say to the noble Lord that I did not vote on the occasion which he referred to, because I felt that, as Leader of the House, it was improper for me to do so. I think that to refer to me as therefore associating myself with a particular view would be unfair, because I did not associate myself with any view at all because I thought it was my right position, as Leader of the House, not to do so.

Lord Elton

My Lords, if it is in order for the noble Lord to have two answers to one set of questions, my answer to the rest of his question is that the facts are as stated by my noble friend and myself. He will not find a conflict between them. As to the individual case he refers to, I shall have to look it up and write to him.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the specific case which I quoted is only one of a large number which have been brought to my notice by the public over the past week, no doubt stimulated by the publicity which has been accorded by the action of his noble friends behind? Can he not answer—

Noble Lords

Order!

Lord Hatch of Lusby

—as to how these cases can be equated with the Answer that he has given? They are all in the files.

Noble Lords

Order!

Lord Elton

My Lords, if the noble Lord will read my substantive Answer, which admittedly was rather long and complex, he will find that his questions have been answered already.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, would it be convenient to put a copy of the Visiting Forces Act in the Library?

The Lord Chancellor (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone)

My Lords, there is one there already.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, I was hoping for greater help than that from the Woolsack! I am only trying to assist the House; that is all.

Lord Elton

My Lords, to assist the House, on the record, may I say that there is already a copy in the Library. I refer the noble and learned Lord to it.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is not the noble Lord aware that it is really very unsatisfactory that it appears to be the case, as a consequence of the Visiting Forces Act, that foreign soldiers in this country are at liberty to shoot British citizens under certain circumstances and not to come under the consequences of British law as a result of their actions?

Lord Elton

My Lords, visiting forces in this country are no more exempt from the rule of law and the doctrine of minimum force than are our forces in, for instance, Germany, who are deployed under the same international agreement.