South Africa: Policy (Hansard, 1 April 1985)

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)
My Lords this is a matter for the United States. But in our view economic sanctions would cause hardship without helping to bring about the fundamental reforms we wish to see.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the brutal system of segregation has existed in South Africa at least throughout this century, during which time various British Governments have maintained a dialogue with the South African Government? Does she agree that apartheid, like Nazism, can only be abandoned or defeated; it can never be reformed? Can she say what effect the Government's policy of dialogue with the South African Government has had on the system of apartheid and on the welfare of the 24 million black Africans in that country?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, we attach importance to our relations with South Africa, as there are major British interests there, but our policy is to encourage a process of reform in South Africa, and we have of course condemned apartheid on many occasions. We continue to believe that the new constitution should be given the test of time, and the current parliamentary session will he a major test.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, have not the recent events in South Africa brought home even to my noble friend the kind of problem with which the South African Government are faced in seeking racial peace—the digging up of infant children and the burning of their bodies for no better reason than that their parents are suspected of having favoured racial peace and co-operation—as well as the point that to deal with that kind of savagery, which seems to have the approval of Bishop Tutu and his friends, is not an easy problem? South Africa has been a loyal ally to us in two wars and now is the time to show who our friends are.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, we consistently condemn violence in South Africa, from whatever quarter, and the South African Government can be in no doubt where we stand. As I indicated in my answer to the earlier question, we attach importance to our relations with South Africa.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that economic sanctions have never brought any change in the country against which they were directed?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I would agree with my noble friend that we do not believe that sanctions would bring change.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree unequivocally that the appalling events in South Africa are the direct consequences of the policy of the South African Government; namely, the policy of apartheid? Secondly, would she agree that successive British Governments have in fact adjusted and changed their policies towards the Government of South Africa in the light of what has taken place there; for example, 7 the export of armaments? Thirdly, in view of the events of the past few weeks, it is not now time for Her Majesty's Government to make a complete reappraisal of their policies towards South Africa; for example, making a decision on no new investments, whatever is the case with existing commercial investments?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, we have deplored the tragic and unnecessary loss of life in South Africa over the incidents in Uitenhage. My right honourable and learned friend the Secretary of State issued a forthright condemnation of the shootings, and my honourable friend Mr. Rifldnd summoned the South African Ambassador and expressed our shock and called for a full investigation. We accept certain constraints on our relationship with South Africa as a measure of our abhorrence of apartheid; that is to say, we support the United Nations' arms embargo and the Gleneagles agreement, and we have no nuclear or military collaboration.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that if we ceased to make new investments in any country whose Government's actions we disapproved of, our foreign trade would be very restricted indeed in the world of today?

§ Baroness Young
Yes, my Lords; and in this case we believe that it would be unlikely to influence South African policies, it would inflict hardship on the black community, and it is not at all clear that it would have much economic impact, anyway.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, while I welcome the Government's recent protest against the killings in South Africa, may I ask the Minister whether she would not agree that it is inconsistent with the antiapartheid policy of the Government that they should be supporting the investment in South Africa of millions of pounds which is maintaining the apartheid system? Is not profit being placed before principle?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I really do not think that there is anything further I can say to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, beyond what I have already said in answering earlier questions.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree that, as anybody who has taken the trouble to visit South Africa recently will be well aware, the improvement in the economic and social status of the black population during the past eight or nine years has been quite staggering? While there is still obviously plenty of scope and need for further improvements, account must be taken of the danger of an electoral backlash from the working class and lower middle class whites—those who feel most at risk—if the pace of political change advances too fast. Is not the answer in the short term, therefore, to try to reduce the heavy unemployment among the rapidly expanding black population by increasing investment in South African industry, rather than reducing it?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, on the question of investment, this is of course a matter for the 8 commercial judgment of firms. However, I would confirm that some important measures have been announced by the South African Government this year—in President Botha's speech in January—indicating a willingness to engage in a wider dialogue with the blacks.

§ Lord Seebohm
My Lords, will the noble Baroness let us know whether anybody has bothered to ask the black Africans what they think about the American initiatives?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, there is evidence that the black community is divided on this issue, with a strong body of opinion opposed to sanctions.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, the noble Baroness indicated that it was the policy of Her Majesty's Government to leave questions of investment to the commercial judgment of individual firms. Would she not agree that in the circumstances the Government ought to have some priorities in these matters, and that priority should be given to investment in the United Kingdom, in order to reduce unemployment here, rather than to bolstering up the existing South African regime by investment there?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, that question is completely wide of the Question on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness to address herself to my first supplementary question? What evidence is there that the pious words uttered by a succession of governments in condemnation of apartheid and the continuation of investment have brought any succour to the 24 million black Africans in South Africa over the period of this century? Is the noble Baroness aware that her words apparently supporting the new constitution will cause a great deal of concern to people throughout the world who recognise that that constitution excludes the 24 million Africans from any part in the determination of their own affairs?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, the reforms to which I referred in answer to an earlier question were contained in President Botha's speech of 25th January, in which he indicated a willingness to engage in a dialogue with the blacks, suspension of forced removals pending a review of policy, extension of 99-year leasehold rights to blacks in the Cape area, and the decision to develop Crossroads as a black residential area. Those moves may not have gone far enough, but they are a start.