§ 2.35 p.m.
§ Lord StrabolgiMy Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Jenkins, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the price paid by the National Gallery for its recent purchase of a painting by Joseph Wright of Derby, and who decided to pay this price.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Arts (The Earl of Gowrie)My Lords, the price paid at public auction for the painting "Mr and Mrs. Thomas Coltman About to Set Out on a Ride" by Joseph Wright of Derby was £1,419,600, including auction premium and VAT. The painting was bought on behalf of the Trustees of the National Gallery. It is for the trustees to decide what to acquire for the collection, and how much money they are prepared to pay.
§ Lord StrabolgiMy Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that reply. As the hammer price was 1.3 million, and as there was a very high VAT element in the final price which the National Gallery had to pay, would the Government consider zero rating the National Gallery and other national collections, in the same way as the 4 metropolitan museums and indeed foreign buyers are zero rated?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, as the noble Lord will be well aware, VAT applies across the public sector, including the National Gallery loosely in this category, and the tendency in modern life is for there to be pressures to extend VAT, not to reduce it.
§ Lord StrabolgiMy Lords, all I am asking is that the National Gallery should be zero rated in the same way as other museums and collections in the rest of the country, provided that they are not national museums, are zero rated.
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, I am well aware of what the noble Lord was asking. I was simply somewhat modest about my power to deliver it.
§ The Earl of RadnorMy Lords, does my noble friend agree that it might be sensible if the National Gallery concentrated more on exhibiting the pictures that it owns, rather than on purchasing more?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, the National Gallery like other great institutions, has to strike a balance. This is certainly a major British painting and perhaps the greatest painting by Wright of Derby. It is, of course, a very high price. It is because I am sensible of what my noble friend has said that I have very reluctantly reduced the National Gallery's purchasing grant this year, in the interests of there being greater overall provision for conservation and display of paintings in our national institutions and for the maintenance of the buildings that show them.
§ Lord AnnanMy Lords, does the noble Earl share my astonishment at the question he was asked by the noble Earl opposite, in view of the fact that every painting in the National Gallery is on view to the public, except those paintings which are either in conservation or on loan elsewhere? Every painting is available to the public to be seen. Furthermore, is the noble Earl aware, in regard to the price paid for this painting, that it has to be compared with the price paid for the Turner owned by the late Lord Clark, which went for £7 million at auction? That was a Turner which, by reason of its quality, the National Gallery would not have shown on the main floor.
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, I do not think I shall be lured into discussion with the noble Lord, Lord Annan, about the quality of the Turner or other paintings. I endorse what he said about the record of the National Gallery in displaying the marvellous national pictures that it owns. I feel that it is important for the House to realise, and for people generally to realise, that we probably now are in the era of £5 million, £6 million or £7 million being quite commonplace prices for old master paintings.
§ Lord GrimondMy Lords, is the noble Earl absolutely sure that all the pictures held by the National Gallery are always on view if they are not being repaired or conserved? Secondly, may I ask him whether he agrees that this picture, which is a genuine part of the British inheritance, is probably rightly in 5 the National Gallery, and that the National Gallery might be better spending its funds on this type of picture rather than on buying very expensive and prestigious drawings and pictures which originate in other lands and which it is very doubtful are part of our heritage at all?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, I do not think that the National Gallery has a kind of Aladdin's Cave or private file of paintings which are denied to the rest of us. I would certainly defend the noble Lord, Lord Annan, in that respect. The question of national heritage is a large and slightly difficult one. We do of course have a great history as a collecting nation, as a nation which collected works by artists round the world, and we have to consider that part of our heritage as well; but I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Grimond, that it was a good thing that the National Gallery acquired this great Wright of Derby.
§ Lord AnnanMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Earl will excuse me if I come in again. Is he aware that no drawings are ever bought by the National Gallery, although they are bought by the British Museum? If the noble Lord, Lord Grimond, descends a spiral staircase which goes from the main floor to the ground floor, he will there see all the paintings that are not on display on the main floor. Those paintings are not of course hung in quite the same style as those on the main floor, but they are there for the public to see.
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, I am of course well aware that it is the British Museum, with the Victoria and Albert Musuem, rather than the National Gallery, that tends to be the repository of great drawings. As for the noble Lord, Lord Grimond, I am sure that both he and the National Gallery can enjoy each other's company whenever the noble Lord suggests.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, can the noble Earl be lured into answering one other question? Is not the underlying social and economic meaning of VAT that, at the various stages in the manufacture or production of an object or service for sale, somebody adds to its value and that addition is then taxed? Can the noble Earl tell the House who added all that value to the Joseph Wright picture?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, I am tempted to say that the person who really added the value was Joseph Wright; and he, happily for himself, is beyond the reach of VAT.