§ 2.38 p.m.
§ Lord ChalfontMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the activities of the organisation known as "Generals for Peace"; and whether they are of the opinion that these activities are consistent with the maintenance of security in the free world.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)My Lords, we are aware of the activities of this organisation, which originated in discussions at Sofia during a World Peace Council Congress in1980. The collective views of Generals for Peace and Disarmament are contrary to those of the Government and our allies. The Government's policy is of course to preserve the security of the United Kingdom and the countries of the Western Alliance.
§ Lord ChalfontMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that Answer, may I ask whether the Government are aware that of the eight founder members of this organisation, which purports to consist of NATO generals, four are members of the World Peace Council, a notorious Soviet front organisation? Is she further aware that the founder and controller of this organisation until very recently was Dr. Gerhard Kade, who is a senior figure in the Soviet propaganda apparatus? Is it not a matter of grave concern that an organisation posing as NATO Generals for Peace might be the instrument of disseminating Soviet disinformation?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, we are fully aware of the close links between four of the original sponsors and five of the current 14 members of the so-called generals group and the World Peace Council. Dr. Gerhard Kade, their co-ordinator until last year, is also an official of the World Peace Council in Helsinki and of its subsidiary, the International Institute for Peace, in Vienna.
Lord Home of the HirselMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that I can remember as far back as 1938 and a famous Secretary-General of the Communist Internationale giving instructions as to how to recruit people into the Russian peace organisations? His words, I remember, were, "One sympathiser, a writer of reputation or a retired general is worth more than 500 poor devils who know no better".
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, is the Minister aware that this is an organisation of ex-generals and admirals of both the West and the East, and even those who have commanded United Nations forces? Is she further aware that its purpose is to prevent a nuclear war, with all its threat to mankind? Is that not the stated purpose of the Government, and therefore should not this organisation be welcomed?
§ Baroness YoungNo, my Lords. These retired officers from NATO countries in no sense represent 435 the alliance or their countries. They claim, in fact, that they are working for disarmament, but they have been strongly critical of Western strategy. They have particularly attacked the deployment of Cruise and Pershing II missiles. They have endorsed the Warsaw Pact disarmament proposals, and have wholly failed to protest at the Soviet Government's recent stationing of nuclear missiles in Czechoslovakia and East Germany.
§ The Earl of KimberleyMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that the danger of this type of Soviet disinformation is enhanced when two national newspapers like the Guardian and the Observer publish accounts of Generals for Peace without any mention of their connections with the Soviet Union? Is she also aware that when this evidence was produced for the Observer the editor categorically refused to print it?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I am aware of the point that my noble friend has made. The fact is that in this country we have a tradition of responsible newspapers printing relevant facts, and any lapses from such a high standard would be regrettable.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, is the Minister aware that the British officer among these generals is an officer with a distinguished record, whatever may be his views about strategy or armaments? Would it not be quite wrong to give the impression in this House that we all regard him as a mole, a red under the bed, or a communist stooge? Is he not entitled to his views on these matters without being so branded?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, in a free society the officer in question is as entitled to express his views as anybody else. But it is a dangerous matter when the suggestion is made that these people are speaking on behalf of NATO or the NATO allies, or are writing on their behalf when, in fact, they are retired generals.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, the Minister is right to say that this officer is as entitled to express his view as everyone else in this country. Is he also not entitled to be excluded from being described as a communist, a traitor, a red under the bed, or any other unpleasant name which people direct at him? Will the noble Baroness be quite clear in what she says about that?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I do not think that in any of the exchanges that have taken place across the Floor of the House this afternoon anyone has described Brigadier Harbottle in those terms. What the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, drew attention to was the link between this organisation and the World Peace Council which I have supported.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, I am glad that the noble Baroness mentioned Brigadier Harbottle, but was it not quite clear from the implication of what was said by her and others that he was so regarded? Would she not agree that he is a distinguished ex-officer with a good record?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, we are not discussing the record of any particular person. The point that has been made in this exchange is that there is a link between this organisation and the World Peace Council.
§ Viscount TrenchardMy Lords, is my noble friend aware—she seems to be very well aware of a great many of the activities of this organisation—that ex-General M. H. von Meyenfeldt, who I understand is presently chairman of this posse of generals, wrote in the journal of the World Peace Council in October 1981:
The foreign policy of the USA is aimed at retaining its position of strength and returning to its old plans of world domination"?Does my noble friend agree that while we must be careful of spotting any particular reds under beds, we should also be careful of wolves in sheep's clothing and possibly even of bears in doves' plumage?
§ Baroness YoungYes, my Lords, I would agree with my noble friend.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that if, instead of listening to this somewhat inflammatory Question and Answer, noble Lords would read the document Generals for Peace and Disarmament, which may be obtained in the Library, they would discover that the policies put forward by the Generals for Peace are almost identical in many respects with those of Her Majesty's Opposition?
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, in these circumstances is it not highly undesirable that the defence committee of this House should be under the control of people who take such a biased view of the whole situation?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, it is not for me to show that the policy of Generals for Peace and the policy of Her Majesty's Opposition are the same. I should have thought that there were divided views on that matter. I would hope that that was the case.
§ Baroness CoxMy Lords, is my noble friend the Minister aware that the organisation called the Centre for International Peacebuilding, which houses Generals for Peace and whose director is their administrator, has set up a registered charity called the Caroline Gourlay Trust? Might this matter not be brought to the urgent attention of the Charity Commission, in view of what many people regard as the blatantly pro-Soviet propaganda distributed by these organisations?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, there are very strict rules regulating the conduct of registered charities, particularly regarding activities of a political character. The points that my noble friend has made, if valid, are no doubt for the consideration of the Charity Commissioners or for my right honourable and learned friend the Attorney-General.
§ Lord ChalfontMy Lords, is the noble Baroness the Minister aware that I am grateful for the robust answers that she has given to my Question? Is she also aware that I accused no one of being a traitor, least of all the British member of this strange organisation? Is she aware that in my view the links between this organisation and the Soviet propaganda organisation are a matter of concern? Would she not agree that the fact that ex-NATO generals who held very high positions should now be meeting serving Soviet generals to discuss strategy in Western Europe is a matter of the gravest concern?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I agree with the points that the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, has made. In fact, the meetings which have taken place, and the third meeting which has recently taken place in Vienna, have in many respects been gifts to Soviet propaganda. In practice these meetings have been stage managed by the Soviet-controlled International Institute for Peace—the Vienna counterpart of the World Peace Council in Helsinki—from whose former offices it operates.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, may I trespass for one moment?
§ Lord DenhamMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, would give way? We have been nine minutes on this Question. Perhaps the House might agree that after the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, has put his question and my noble friend has answered we should move on.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord. I merely wanted to ask the noble Baroness whether she was aware that what I am about to quote is from the pamphlet issued by Generals for Peace. This quotation will commend itself to the whole House:
One must recognise the wisdom of the wartime slogan: 'Know your Enemy'.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I am sure that we all agree that we should know our enemies.