HL Deb 30 October 1984 vol 456 cc437-9

2.50 p.m.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of their answer on 17th May last (col. 1504) and subsequent letter of 4th June to the Baroness Burton of Coventry concerning the right of the London Electricity Consultative Council to make further representations to the Secretary of State for Energy, they will indicate the present position on this matter.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (The Earl of Avon)

My Lords, I understand that the London Electricity Consultative Council, following its representations to the Electricity Council about the increase in domestic electricity prices last April, has not chosen to pursue the matter with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, does the Minister recall that the central point at issue in all this was that the electricity industry was being required to make a separate grant to the Treasury in 1984–85 of £360 million over and above the £380 million which would have been consistent with the financial target for that year? Does he also recall that the chairman of the Electricity Council, Mr. Jones, said that the £360 million was necessary neither on economic pricing grounds nor in order to meet the industry's current financial target? Furthermore, would the Minister accept that this was not an agreed figure but one imposed without any consultation at all?

The Earl of Avon

No, my Lords, I would not agree with what the noble Baroness says. We are now going back over the ground covered in April. At that stage a 2 per cent. increase in domestic prices was the subject of a challenge by the London Electricity Consultative Council, and the consultative council exercised its rights under statute formally to appeal. This rise of 2 per cent. was agreed by the Electricity Council and duly came into force.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, is the Minister aware that I should like to know where he disgrees with me? It may be in the past; it relates to last February; but, certainly, what I stated is correct. I wonder if I might ask him whether he is denying that Mr. Jones, the chairman of the Electricity Council, did say that the charges were imposed without consultation and that the council gave way afterwards.

As we are on this point, may I ask the noble Earl whether he is aware that the Government's attitude towards consumers is causing acute puzzlement and dismay among consumers? Does he recall that Mr. Alex Henney was not reappointed as chairman of the London Electricity Consultative Council in August and that many of us feel that Mr. Henney was not appointed because he was being a nuisance as he was endeavouring to give teeth to the council and was pursuing the Government on this particular matter?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, the Electricity Council proposed the 2 per cent. increase across the board which took place in the spring. Mr. Alex Henney was not reappointed. A new chairman has been appointed, a Mr. Bourne, and we wish him well.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, will the noble Earl use this occasion to confirm to the House the unequivocal statement that he made to your Lordships' House last December that the Government had neither the power nor the wish to increase electricity or gas prices?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I am happy to confirm what the noble Lord has said I said. I am delighted that he put it in a letter to The Times.

Baroness Seear

My Lords, would the noble Earl not agree that when a very well-informed critic such as Mr. Henney is not reappointed to his position it at least raises the suggestion that the Government are not interested in informed criticism on behalf of the consumers?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I appreciate what the noble Baroness has said, but I personally was very stimulated by Mr. Henney's words and what he produced for the Government and would welcome his reappointment if he wished to serve on the national council. As far as the London council is concerned, at the end of his three years he was not reappointed.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, the noble Earl the Minister has denied the assertion by the noble Baroness that no consultation took place, but he omitted to deal with her point that the chairman said that there had been no consultation. Would he care to reply to that point now?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, it is very difficult, when the noble Baroness produces a whole lot of sentences, to know to which particular sentence one is replying. As far as I am concerned, the consultative council is at the moment in consultation with the Ministry, and I am sure that this will be to the benefit of all concerned.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, is it in order, before asking another supplementary question, to ask the noble Earl to repeat the beginning of the last remark of his because I did not catch it?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I am afraid that the noble Baroness will have to wait for Hansard tomorrow.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

So, my Lords, not waiting for Hansard tomorrow, may I ask the Minister whether he recalls that last week in this House we discussed telephone charges which were being imposed with no consultation with the consumer organisation? Now we are discussing electricity charges which, equally, have been imposed without consultation. Is the Minister aware that consumer organisations just do not believe that the Government have any use for consumers at all except to call them in aid as a public relations exercise?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, all I can say to the noble Baroness is that, as far as I am concerned, when I was there, she is totally wrong. I initiated talks with the consumer councils, with the chairman, Mr. Hatch, and I understand that my successor is continuing these discussions.