HL Deb 23 October 1984 vol 456 cc128-9

2.38 p.m.

Lord Orr-Ewing

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what has been the total of fines levied on the 6,000 pickets who have been arrested in the current miners' dispute. what percentage of these fines have been paid, and how many fines have been less than £5.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)

My Lords. the information which is available about the 7,318 pickets arrested up to 16th October is not exactly in the form which my noble friend asks for. However, I can tell him that fines for offences committed in England and Wales in connection with the dispute have been imposed on 1,244 people at the following levels:

Six people have been fined under £10; 94 people have been fined from £ 10 to £24; 167 from £25 to £49; 226 from £50 to £74; 332 from £75 to £99; 265 from £100 to £149; 50 from £150 to £199; and 104 people have been fined £200 and above. The cost of finding out the percentage of those fines that have been paid would be disproportionate.

Lord Orr-Ewing

My Lords, can my noble friend say whether one of the factors in setting the level of fines is the amount of damage done to public property that will have to be met by taxpayers from all over the country? Is it true, as reported, that the current rate is £14 a day for Scargill's private army plus travel expenses? Is it true therefore that at the lowest end some of these pickets are making a very handsome profit out of the operation?

Lord Elton

My Lords, it is not for Her Majesty's Government to comment on the decisions of individual courts in individual cases. The decision as to what is an appropriate fine in any case must belong entirely to the courts. In making it, they are required under Section 35 of the Magistates' Courts Act 1980 to have regard to the means of offenders so far as they are known.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister care to make it abundantly clear to the House—if it is not transparently obvious already—that to try and judge statistics in regard to criminal offences without knowing the nature of the offence, without knowing the mitigating circumstances or matters relevant to previous character, would be thoroughly injudicious, mischievous and misleading?

Lord Elton

My Lords, it is, as I say, not for Her Majesty's Government to decide on what the courts ought to award in any individual case. But my noble friend of course had an absolute right to ask the substantive Question that stood in his name.

Lord Renton

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the duty of the court to award compensation where appropriate is scarcely dependent at all upon the factors mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I am aware of that fact, but I think that we are discussing fines and not compensation.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the use of such phrases as "Scargill's private army" reflects more upon the noble Lord who uses them than upon anyone else?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I think that anyone who reflects upon the circumstances will regard them as unfortunate and unconstitutional, but the bounds of the Question on the Order Paper forbid us debating that matter.

The Earl of Lauderdale

My Lords, can my noble friend say whether Her Majesty's Government are reviewing the state of the law in regard to these disturbances and whether they think that the law at present is adequate or that the police are necessarily the best people to deal with it?

Lord Elton

My Lords, the state of the law as regards public order has been under review for some time.

Baroness Lane-Fox

My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister say what percentage of the arrested pickets were themselves miners by trade?

Lord Elton

My Lords, my information is that the number arrested who are miners is 6,828, which is about 93 per cent. of all those arrested.

Lord Orr-Ewing

My Lords, the noble Lord opposite seems to abhor statistics, but surely it would be in our interests to have some statistics. Is it not rather ridiculous that 2,000 miners from as far away as Durham turned up at a very small pit in Yorkshire this morning in order to picket one man who wished to exercise his right to go to work?

Lord Elton

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have strong views on these matters, but they are not on the Order Paper.

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, if we are to have statistics, might they include the very large number of miners who are now threatened with dismissal?

Lord Elton

My Lords, again, Her Majesty's Government have very strong views on that, but that matter is not on the Order Paper.