§ 2.47 p.m.
Viscount BuckmasterMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they accept recent reports of extensive killings and other serious violations of human rights by the armed forces in Uganda and whether they will define the role of the British military training team operating with the Ugandan Army.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces (Lord Trefgarne)My Lords. we accept that abuses of human rights and killings have taken place in Uganda and that members of the Ugandan army, among others, have been responsible. We have made clear our concern to the Ugandan Government. The role of our training team is to assist with the training and development of the Ugandan armed forces as part of our wider efforts to help improve security and economic conditions in Uganda.
Viscount BuckmasterMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Minister for his Answer. Would he not agree, however, that human rights violations in Uganda are among the gravest in the world? Is he not aware that the reports from Amnesty International, whose reputation for the assessment of such situations is surely beyond dispute, have indicated that these human rights violations have been continuing since February 1981, quite apart from the killings in Amin's day, and that they are increasing in severity rather than diminishing? Secondly, the Amnesty International report reveals that most of the victims of these army barbarities have not been guerrillas at all but unarmed civilians, including many women and children. Is the noble Lord the Minister also aware that there are in Britain today a great many Ugandans, and also Britons, who served in Uganda recently and who have first-hand experience of these horrendous happenings, which have included mass murders, mutilations, abductions—
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, we do agree that there have been some very serious abuses of human rights in Uganda. However, we take the view that across the country there has been some improvement in recent years, and I believe that that can to some extent be ascribed to the work done by our military training team in that country. It is for that reason that we plan that the training team should continue.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords. can the noble Lord say to what extent these violations of human rights have affected the policy of Her Majesty's Government in other directions—for example, on aid generally? Can he indicate to the House what is the size of the British military contingent there? And is he really saying that the presence of that contingent has influenced the conduct of the Ugandan army? Does he agree, for example, with the allegation made by the United States Government that 100,000 people have been killed in violation of human rights? Can he say something more about other aid given by Her Majesty's Government to Uganda; is that to continue as well?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the size of our training team in that country is 13, consisting of eight NCOs and five officers. I believe we can claim that the work of that team has resulted in improved discipline and efficiency of the Ugandan army. The purpose of the team is to train junior officers and NCOs for the Ugandan army. We believe that they have been very successful in that role. Indeed, in the area where the team is working, we can point to a significant improvement in the security and human rights situation.
On the question of our aid, this amounts to about £7 million a year. As the noble Lord knows, we are always ready and indeed desirous to condemn abuses of human rights wherever they may occur. But I believe that the Ugandan Government are trying to put this matter right. We think it best to assist them in that endeavour.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether aid is getting through to the people who need it?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, we hope that that is the case. In addition to the £7 million to which I have referred we are making certain specific sums of money available in areas where there is a particular need—for example. for food aid—and we are clear that that is getting through to the areas where it is most needed.
The Lord Bishop of NorwichMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a few weeks ago I had the privilege of spending a day with the military training team at Jinga Barracks and in the surrounding training area? Is he aware of the tremendous encouragement that it was to all right-thinking Ugandans to discover that this new and improved arrangement for training had the strong support of Her Majesty's Government? Is he aware that, although as he has rightly told us the team is only 13 strong, because they are running seven-week courses they are able to do significant work among those young officers and senior NCOs whom I met and spoke with through the kindness of British High Commission which took me there—and I was there to do a preaching tour?
I should like to ask the Minister one question which arises from something that was said to me by one of our NCOs. He was of a very high standard; a Welsh Guardsman decorated in the Falklands conflict and others. He asked, "Might there be any chance of Her Majesty's Government doubling the number of 13 in our team? If so, I believe that we could do twice as much good in bringing discipline, and encouragement and all the traditions of the British Army to an army which faces tremendous problems and which desires our help in every way possible."
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for his complimentary words about the work of the team there, which underlines what I said earlier. As for the possibility of increasing the size of the team, I am afraid that the problem is, as always, one of resources. I can give no assurance to the right reverend Prelate that we shall be able to do that, but naturally we shall keep the matter under review.
§ Lord LeatherlandMy Lords, can the Minister tell us the ranks of the British NCOs who are there?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I do not have the specific ranks of the NCOs. I believe they are senior NCOs. In addition to the NCOs there are a colonel, two majors and two captains.
Viscount BuckmasterMy Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister not agree that Her Majesty's Government have a particular responsibility to do all that they can to persuade the Ugandan Government to stem this terrifying torrent of evil, particularly bearing in mind that Uganda is a fellow member of the Commonwealth—our cosy Commonwealth club—of which Her Majesty the Queen is the head?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I certainly agree that we should do everything we can to assist the Ugandan Government and the Ugandan Army in their endeavours to improve the situation, but Uganda is, of course, a sovereign country and we have to stop short of interfering in the internal affairs of that country.