HL Deb 21 November 1984 vol 457 cc574-7

2.51 p.m.

Lord Gainford

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the light of reports that only 6.8 per cent. of girl students opt for A-level physics, they are satisfied that this untapped reservoir of talent in the country's educational system is likely to be properly exploited in the foreseeable future.

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, the Government are anxious to encourage more girls to pursue studies in mathematics and the physical sciences. These subjects are key areas in terms of employment opportunities and preparation for new technological skills. I am glad to say that participation by girls in post-16 mathematics and physical science courses is already growing. We shall continue to do what we can to stimulate that growth.

Lord Gainford

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that encouraging Answer. Has he any information, please, on how many girls receive encouragement to follow careers as technicians in industry and on the importance of such work for translating policy into fact?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, the Government are conscious that many job opportunities will be in science and the new technologies, and in this context noble Lords will no doubt be aware of the Equal Opportunity Commission's current campaign, supported by the Government and the Manpower Services Commission, to encourage girls into science and engineering careers. In fact, this is the 1984 Women into Science and Engineering Year.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, can the Minister say what research has been conducted into the reasons why girls do not opt for mathematics and the physical sciences at A-level, and in particular can he say whether there are any differences between single-sex and co-educational schools in this respect? Does he think there is any truth in the allegation which has been made in some quarters that because more teenage boys tend aggressively to demand the attention of teachers, they tend to get an unfair share of the attention of the teachers in laboratory work? If that is one of the reasons why girls are discouraged, could not advice be given to teachers on the means of correcting that imbalance?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, yes; there have already been two research projects on Girls into Science and Technology and Girls and Technology Education. These have helped to identify ways in which curriculum content and planning in schools and the organisation of the option system often fail to meet the needs of girls in science. Particular attention needs to be given to the style and methods of teaching, to the curriculum content, to timetabling arrangements, and finally, but most importantly, to careers advice.

Baroness Seear

My Lords, would the Minister agree that his reply is slightly complacent, in view of the very low percentage of girls in fact taking these subjects? Would he tell us what steps are being taken to follow up the researches? It is all very well to have a research programme, but I should like to ask whether anybody is doing anything as a result. It has been shown that some influences in the schools are adverse to girls taking these subjects. Finally, would the Government consider taking positive action to increase the number of women physicists, as is permitted under Sections 47 and 48 of the Sex Discrimination Act?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, my original reply was not meant to be complacent; it was supposed to be encouraging, which I hope it was. Yes, there are a number of practical measures that we can take to try to increase the number of girls studying A-level physics. One thing we must do is to increase the number of girls studying science before they reach 16. The Government have already made clear their view that all pupils, including all girls, should be properly introduced to science in the primary school and should continue to study a broad programme of science throughout the first five years of secondary education. There are a number of other measures, such as in-service courses for teachers of these particular subjects and the introduction of computers into schools. These are among a number of things that we are doing to try to help with this problem.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, would not the noble Earl agree that among the various wastes now taking place the greatest of all is that of intelligent women who are not at present being trained to the extent that they could be or employed to the extent that they could be? Is this not a particular point of priority where heavy pressure should now be put, as well as a direction in which Her Majesty's Government should indeed be moving?

The Earl of Swinton

Yes, my Lords; and my experience of intelligent women is that they tend to take their own line of country and you cannot coerce them into doing otherwise.

Lord Beloff

My Lords, would the noble Earl the Minister agree that, in the light of the fact to which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, referred—that there is statistical evidence that girls are keener to take these subjects and do better in them in single-sex schools—it would be a good idea to encourage local authorities to preserve single-sex schools where they exist and, subject to resources, to introduce new ones?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I think I shall have to write to my noble friend about that. I have no statistics on single or multi-sex schools.

Lord Ardwick

My Lords, can the noble Earl assure us that there is no longer a shortage of teachers capable of taking physics and mathematics at sixth-form level in girls' schools?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, again, as I said, I am not sure of the difference between girls'-only schools and schools for both boys and girls. We are endeavouring to bring teachers up to a higher standard than that at which some of them are at this moment.

Lord Ardwick

My Lords, will the noble Earl perhaps write to me about this? This was a particular difficulty in girls' schools. It may have been cleared up now, but I doubt it.

The Earl of Swinton

Yes, my Lords, I shall certainly write to the noble Lord.

Baroness Fisher of Rednal

My Lords, to us on these Benches it seems rather complacent that the noble Earl gives us all nice answers to the questions. But we have student unrest thoughout the country because of the cut-backs and non-availability of places. Would not the noble Earl agree that today the demonstrations throughout the country are showing quite clearly that the students themselves are not getting enough grants? How on earth are we going to fill the places for girls and boys in science if we have to have these continual cuts?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I think that is a very different question. If the noble Baroness wishes to put down a Question on those lines, I shall be delighted to answer it.

Baroness Lockwood

My Lords, if I can now get my question in, I should like to ask the Minister whether he would not agree that it is much better to tackle the problem within the context of the existing schools, along the lines that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has suggested? Would not that be the best line of attack in the first place—meeting long-term problems? But would the noble Earl the Minister indicate whether in order to overcome short-term problems the Government have any intention of providing special facilities for the conversion of girls with A-levels in arts subjects to take them over into the science and technological subjects?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I should have thought that was very much a question for individual establishments and the way that they are run. I would agree with the noble Baroness that the way through must be first of all to encourage them to start studying science from an early age. Then, it is to be hoped, they will go into that branch of learning.