HL Deb 14 November 1984 vol 457 cc317-8

3.9 p.m.

Lord Stallard

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress they have made in their discussion with Canada on paying retirement pension increases to United Kingdom citizens resident there.

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, the Canadian Department of Health and Welfare has prepared the draft of a reciprocal agreement on social security which would provide for pension increases for United Kingdom pensioners in Canada. The test is currently the subject of negotiation between officials of my department and our Canadian counterparts. The implementation of any agreement will depend on the necessary finance becoming available.

Lord Stallard

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Is he aware that in a few days' time many thousands of British pensioners living in countries such as America, Spain, Turkey, Bermuda, and many other countries throughout the world will receive the new amount of £35.80, while many United Kingdom pensioners living in Canada, after fulfilling the same qualifying criteria, still receive no more than £10 a week? Will the noble Lord therefore accept that there is some urgency in the matter if we are to deal with this injustice? Is he in a position to give us some more definite timescale as to when the matter is likely to be resolved?

Lord Glenarthur

Yes, my Lords, I am aware of what the noble Lord says. In principle, the Government accept the case for a comprehensive social security convention with Canada, which would enable the sort of increases to which he refers to be paid. However, as I have said, the problem is one of priorities and the allocation of funds. The potential cost to the United Kingdom of such a convention would be over £30 million a year, estimated at 1983 rates of benefit, and until funds are available that cannot be done.

Baroness Jeger

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Minister for promising to pursue the matter. When he talks about finance do he and the Government take into account the fact that most of these elderly people are widows and widowers who left this country to go to stay with married sons and daughters and to make a home in Canada, and that thereby they are saving our social services a great deal of money and use of manpower? Can the noble Lord not therefore include in the balance sheet some of these savings and perhaps feel able to be a little generous very soon?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, although pensioners in Canada are not making use of the National Health Service and United Kingdom social services, it is not really possible to trade one thing off totally against another in the way the noble Baroness suggests. Besides the fact that one cannot quantify the savings on services, the financial arrangements for cash benefits are quite different. The National Health Service and social services are part of the social structure of the country available to residents and are financed as such.

Lord Stallard

My Lords, may I press the noble Lord further on the financial arrangements? Is it not possible in considering draft proposals, to discuss some phasing in of the increases in order to reduce the immediate financial implications?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, it is true that partial unfreezing (the technical term, I think for what the noble Lord is getting at) would initially cost less than total unfreezing. It would cost about £2.5 million in the first year. However, ultimately, the annual cost would be the same as for a total unfreezing. In the present situation the Government cannot make such a commitment.