HL Deb 22 May 1984 vol 452 cc138-40

2.49 p.m.

Baroness David

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are now prepared to use their votes on the Burnham Panel to set up an arbitration board to resolve the current dispute over schoolteachers' pay in England and Wales.

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, the Government's representatives have only a minority vote within the management panel of the Burnham primary and secondary committee. However, the Government fully support the decision of the panel not to refer the dispute to arbitration. The offer made stretches to the very limit the employers' capacity to pay; no arbitrator could enhance that capacity.

Baroness David

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. But does he not agree that the Minister controls 15 of the 40 votes on the Burnham panel? If they are instructed to vote one way or the other, it makes all the difference as to how the vote goes in the end. Is the Secretary of State really going to distance himself continually from this dispute, which has the support of all six teacher unions and the support of the membership of those unions?

Lord Houghton of Sowerby

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware——

Noble Lords

Order‡

The Earl of Swinton

I can only answer one question at a time, my Lords. I must disagree with the suggestion that my right honourable friend is distancing himself. In fact, he announced his willingness in another place just the other day to meet any of the teacher unions if they wished to discuss pay matters. So far. he has received no such request for a meeting.

Lord Houghton of Sowerby

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that it is 10 years this week since the last major review of teachers' pay was undertaken? Many sectors of the public services have been reviewed. Some have permanent review bodies and others have been the subject of more recent reviews. Is it not time that another independent inquiry into the pay and structure of the teaching profession should be undertaken?

The Earl of Swinton

Yes, my Lords. I am indeed aware of the fact that this week marks the 10th anniversary of the committee chaired by no less than the noble Lord, Lord Houghton. But the telling factor has to be what the employer can afford to pay—not comparison with other groups or restoration of past relativities. In fact, this Government believe that the attitude which led to the Houghton report was one of the stages of the decline from which this Government, and their predecessor, have had to rescue the economy.

Lord Jacques

My Lords. is the Minister aware that when a trade union takes the same view as the Government are taking in regard to arbitration, that trade union is condemned? Will the Government consider a modified form of arbitration under which both parties put their case and the arbitrator is not allowed to compromise but makes an award to one party or the other?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, the way in which this arbitration would work—if it was agreed to—would be in line with normal practice. Prior to 1981, there was access to arbitration on teachers' pay at the request of either side. But to bring arrangements into line with business practice and to accord with the principle reflected in the Employment Protection Act, the procedure was changed so that the agreement of both sides was necessary.

Lord Taylor of Blackburn

My Lords. surely the Minister would agree that, in the end, there is no way out of this impasse other than by going to arbitration? All the problems we are facing at present. with pupils being unable to obtain their required education, will be meaningless unless some action is taken in this direction.

The Earl of Swinton

No, my Lords. I would not agree with the noble Lord. I would agree that the teachers' action is not helping to educate children; but teachers' pay is negotiated on the Burnham Committee, and that is where this dispute must be resolved. The 4. 5 per cent. offer is still on the table and the management panel has expressed its willingness to talk.

Baroness David

My Lords, is the Minister not aware that there is deadlock on the committee and that the deadlock looks to be continuing? Does he not consider that it is up to the Secretary of State and the department to make some move, so that this unhappy dispute, which everybody has cause to regret, need not go on for week after week? Could not some move be made?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords. I said in an earlier reply that my right honourable friend has said that he is willing to meet the teachers' leaders. So far, they have not taken him up on that offer.